ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

Tambora said:

Wouldn't making the garden off limits also include not having access to the tree of knowledge?
Both trees were in the garden.
No one could eat from either of them.

Without that access, no one else could commit the sin of eating from the tree as Adam & Eve did.


Romans 5:14 KJV
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

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That's why I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is sin, itself. And what does Paul tell us? "Sin entered the world". Perhaps God cast the tree out of the garden when Adam was cast out. The only thing God didn't want him to have access to was the tree of life...lest he live forever.

Shasta said:

It is true that Christ had to be perfectly righteous to become the sacrifice for sin and it is through believing in Him we are cleansed and made righteous before God.

Spoiler

However "justification" (giving us right standing before God) is not the result of God "imputing" the merits of Christ's righteous life "to our account." We are forgiven, cleansed and "made righteous" by the blood of Jesus. In forgiving us we are cleansed from unrighteousness and restored to right standing with God.

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”
(Romans 4:6-8)

We are able to receive this forgiveness by believing in Christ rather than through works of the Law.
When the Lord forgives us He does not count our sins against us. That is what forgiveness means. The idea that we are guilty because of Adam's personal sin against God is nowhere in scripture. While the natural consequences of the Fall necessarily affect us God does no hold one person liable for the sins of an ancestor.

In the same way we all suffered certain consequences as a result of Adam's actions but his personal guilt is not "imputed to us" or "transferred to our account." God judges people to be guilty on the basis of their sins not because of the actions of their ancestors. As I said before Augustine's idea of "Original Sin" came from his reading of a mistranslation of Romans 5:12 in the Latin Vulgate. To "impute" sin to anyone other than the perpetrator is unjust.

32"But now, if You will, forgive their sin-- and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" 33 The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.…
(Exodus 32:32-33)

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son
(Ezekiel 18:20)


This is a principle emanating from God's character of Justice. It was just as true about him in the days of Adam as it was in the days of Moses and Ezekiel.




If a person is pardoned there is no need to "impute," or "transfer" the righteousness of Christ "to his account.

As a result of this offering for sin, God has legal basis for attributing (imputing) righteousness to the justified sinner. Romans 5:19



12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

All this verse says is that sin entered the world through Adam. It does not say the his guilt was "imputed" to us individually because he was our "federal representative." If he was our "federal representative" who gave him that office and when was that stated? It is an important question since if he had NOT been then the legal culpability for his crime would not have been imputed to us. As to the multigenerational transmission of the sin nature, I think you are caught between two contradictory explanations. One is the forensic model of imputation. Then you bring up traducianism which ties this transfer to organic descent. Well, if you believe in legal imputation, traducianism is unnecessary. It is more compatible with traducianism to say that a non-living human spirit (spiritual death) was passed on and that sin came out of that.



1 John 1:7-9 says that cleansing, forgiveness as well as being made righteous (by the removal of unrighteousness) are an ongoing process not a one-time event. The verbs used here are in the present which denotes action that is durative, repetitive, or continuous action. They do not denote not single actions. The meaning of the verse does not agree with your belief.

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I am well aware that you and I have doctrinal differences... however... you make many valid points here. I simply disagree with one of your points more strongly than my disagreements with your others... per several key verses...

(Isaiah 64:6 binds to Romans 3:23... and further on point... if we ever say we are without sin is addressed in 1 John 1:8)

Isaiah 64:6 binds directly to Galatians 3:27 ... In other words... we have to offer ourselves as the Son to the Father to be accepted. This is why Job 13:6 is so important to consider in these matters.

Our flesh is like "Filthy Garments", while the "Wedding Feast Garment" is Perfect. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness. This is exactly what Romans 5:18 is eluding to and the Typification's for this in scripture are so prevalent, I suggest that it would be a fair matter for you to look into them. Jacob before Abraham for instance.

This story ties directly into a "Son... Standing before His Father..."

One final suggested verse set for you to ponder is... Zech. 3:3f, 10 ...

I have a verse specific tie of Zech. 3 to other scripture that is in theological shorthand and works well with ToL's Ref Tagger if you are interested. I believe you would be capable of it, as your grey matter seems to process theology well.

- EE

Nang said:

Removal from the garden, and losing access to the Tree of Life, was punishment from God and the loss of everlasting life.

The offspring of Adam figuratiely continue to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to this day, only because the representative head of the human race introduced them to it in disobedience, and corrupted all.

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They don't eat of the forbidden fruit until the are old enough to choose good over evil, which is exactly how you should know that we don't inherit Adam's sin. Sin came into the world....it didn't come through Adam's corrupted genes. Just like Adam, we each must choose evil over good before we are guilty of sin.

glorydaz said:

Yeah, and what do you make of that? If eating the fruit awakened his conscience that would explain it, wouldn't it? Or, possibly, it was the guilt he felt for disobeying God that "spread" through him. I know when I first experienced guilt, I felt it throughout my being. I felt the eyes of God upon me.

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Then like Cain we slew that whimpy Abel?

glorydaz said:

That's why I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is sin, itself. And what does Paul tell us? "Sin entered the world". Perhaps God cast the tree out of the garden when Adam was cast out. The only thing God didn't want him to have access to was the tree of life...lest he live forever.

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I understand your point Glory days... but Romans 7 suggests other wise. More specifically... if the "knowledge of good and evil" is "sin"... then this would be suggesting that God beholds (Sin)... (Gen. 3:22)..

I will add Romans 7 and try to explain my counter perspective to this idea.

First ... The key to this idea...

1 Cor. 15:55f... and Heb. 2:14


It is obvious that the serpent is being addressed here, per Heb. 2:14 ... Note the order of damage...

The serpent bite of "Death" is SIN (Transgression of the Law ... or on Adams account... Unbelief in God's Provision and Truth) ... The next point is that the Power of Sin is The Law. We know that the Law is good... and we further know that God is Good by the Law. It represents His perfection that we can never obtain, because within it are matters that come directly from being God. The Kingship of Israel for instance.

In other words... the serpent imputed the Law (perfection of God) upon mankind ... through spreading his unbelief and desire to be like God (Is. 14:14 and Gen. 3:5) ...

This afforded the serpent to condemn us by God's Self standards of "Perfection" and resultingly empowered the serpent with the office of false and self appointed judge, accuser and Death. We all fall short of the Flesh/Glory of God... Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:3)

Now... going into Romans 7 ... we can now see the following...


Here we see that the Law... or fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not Evil. We see that it is good in that it shows us our "Missing the Mark of God"... (Sin/Imperfection when compared to God) ... think of this statement... (Mk. 10:18 and this 2 Cor. 5:21)

So.. now we need to see if there is DNA of scripture to link this to the tree.


Here we see the connection to "Coveting". This binds to (Gen. 3:5 and Is. 14:14) ... we coveted the authority and wisdom of God by the inception of temptation by a malevolent force.


Now... we see that Sin... which is the sting of the Serpent... afforded by imputing the carnal pursuit of trying to "Be Like God" upon us through deceit... is the very knowledge of our NEED for God... though the serpent is using it to attempt to separate us from "belief" in our all Loving Provider, through SHAME... Note God's immediate response to our choice and resulting shame... (Gen. 3:21 ... this is symbolic of Gal. 3:7 and imputed righteousness of God... as you well know)


Here we see a duel reference to individual human birth and the Eden account. We see that the knowledge of (Perfection of God and Wisdom of Good and Evil) God... slays us Spiritually and renders us carnally focused on our inability to measure up to God. This divides us from God and gives us two possible responses...

1) We try to (Is. 14:14)
2) We claim Eph. 2:8f and John 5:39f


Here we see how the serpent used the very perfection of God against God and deceived us to question God's goodness and utter, Loving Provision. The Spirit's perfection that brings Life by the will of the Spirit (God TriUne), became a tool that the "adversary" utilized to separate us from our Creator. In this... knowledge of God's Perfection (Law) brought about death in our very members on many levels.


Commandment... Law... God's Perfection (Mk. 10:18) ... Here we see that key tie in that I addressed with Corinthians and Hebrews. The Serpent used God's Perfection (Law) to deceive us into Sin.... And the wages of unbelief in God's utter provision and our focus on how we "should be like God"... which is the first lie... (Gen. 3:5; Is. 14:14) in conjunction with "you shall not surely die"... was utilized to bring about our disconnection from our Life Giving Spirit! (John 14:6) ... IOW ... we took our eyes off of God and put them on ourselves... (Gen. 3:7)


This is why I say the Tree is good and it's fruit is good... but only to God... (Mk. 10:18)

wphewwww....

done... [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] ... you don't have to... but please give this a read and tell me what you think... [MENTION=17501]ok doser[/MENTION] ... feel free to provide some of that J.H. feedback. :thumb:

glorydaz said:

So you don't believe anyone is born saddled with Adam's sin since the Lord went to the cross? It no longer applies?

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Paul says no. He is not imputing trespasses to us. He has reconciled his enemies to him. Justice was served. However, that is not salvation. We are saved when we receive his life. And you know from TOL, people reject the first part of reconciliation.

Nang said:

Adam acquired a knowledge of good and evil that was forbidden to him; subsequently, his offspring inherit that harmful knowledge through natural generation.

It is the cause of humankinds' total depravity . . . it is part of the Godly curse.

The remedy for this tragedy is only found through faith in Jesus Christ. I Corinthians 11-16

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What harmful knowledge? Be specific, please.

Shasta said:

It is true that Christ had to be perfectly righteous to become the sacrifice for sin and that it is through believing in Him that we are cleansed and made righteous.

Spoiler

Nevertheless "justification" is not the result of God "imputing" the merits of Christ's righteous life "to our account." It is through being forgiven that we are cleansed from unrighteousness and restored to right standing with God.

6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin”
(Romans 4:6-8)

We are able to receive this forgiveness by believing in Christ rather than through works of the Law. When the Lord forgives us He does not "count" our sins against us. That is what forgiveness means.

While the natural consequences of the Fall necessarily affect us God does not hold one person liable for the sins of an ancestor.

32"But now, if You will, forgive their sin-- and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" 33 The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.…
(Exodus 32:32-33)

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son
(Ezekiel 18:20)

We all suffer from the consequences of Adam's sin but his personal guilt but God judges people to be culpable for their own sins not for the sins of their ancestors. As I said before Augustine's idea of "Original Sin" (which was that all men sinned in Adam) came from reading a mistranslation of Romans 5:12 in the Latin Vulgate. Actually the verse says "death passed to all men" and "because all sin"



12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12).

All this verse says is that sin entered the world through Adam. It does not say the his guilt was "imputed" to us individually because he was our "federal representative." If he was our "federal representative" who gave him that office and when was that stated? It is an important question since if he had NOT been then the legal culpability for his crime would not have been imputed to us.

As to the multigenerational transmission of the sin nature, I think you are caught between two contradictory explanations. One is the forensic model of imputation. Then you bring up traducianism which ties this transfer to organic descent. Well, if you believe in legal imputation, traducianism is unnecessary. It is more compatible with traducianism to say that a non-living human spirit (spiritual death) was passed on and that sin came out of that.



1 John 1:7-9 says that cleansing, forgiveness as well as being made righteous (by the removal of unrighteousness) are an ongoing process not a one-time event. The verbs used here are in the present which denotes action that is durative, repetitive, or continuous action. They do not denote not single actions. The meaning of the verse does not agree with your belief.

Click to expand...

This issue I have with what you are saying is that you are suggesting the Eph. 2:8f gift requires some type of lifetime process to obtain... This is direct denial of John 3:16f and you are denying that the sin of this world is unbelief...

This is my rapid counter argument to what you have written.

God's Truth said:

If you sin after being saved,

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What sin? He who has died has been freed from sin. God's Truth is an example on TOL that I was just talking about. GT has not received his eternal life by his own testimony.

Nang said:

No we do not die spiritually when we sin . . we sin because we are spiritually dead.

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That's because the Great God of Love and Righteousness is busy forming spiritually dead babies to come into this world of sin so they can live depraved lives. :jump:

Then He chooses some and damns the rest. :jump:

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

What are some challenging questions that you see we should ponder at this point in your thread Jerry?

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I wouldn't want to ask any more questions at this point. Instead, I would like to see an intelligent answer from some of those who oppose my view to the question of what kind of "death" is spoken of in the following verse in "bold":


Those who insist that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all of his descendants invariably point to the verses at Romans 5:12-20 to try to prove that they are right. But I have yet to see even one of them deal with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner.

Can you think of anyway to prod these people into actually dealing with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner?

Thanks!

God's Truth said:

Adam and Eve were born in the body of Christ. They sinned and were expelled. Jesus came and shows us hot to be reconciled to Him again.

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:dead:

Jerry Shugart said:

I wouldn't want to ask any more questions at this point. Instead, I would like to see an intelligent answer from some of those who oppose my view to the question of what kind of "death" is spoken of in the following verse in "bold":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Those who insist that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all of his descendants invariably point to the verses at Romans 5:12-20 to try to prove that they are right. But I have yet to see even one of them deal with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner.

Can you think of anyway to prod these people into actually dealing with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner?

Thanks!

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You've been extremely patient, Jerry, and absolutely clear. I don't know why so many refuse to address what is so plainly written. :think:

glorydaz said:

That's why I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is sin, itself.

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Hi glorydaz,

What is your interpreation of the meaning of the word "law" in the following passage?:


Thanks!

Right Divider said:

This is the sort of confusion you get from mixing law and grace.

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I am not mixing anything. I am just interpreting scripture. 1 John was written in the last decade of the First Century when the Church was full of Gentiles. According to the Apostolic fathers John had moved to Ephesus to take care of the Church there since Paul had been dead for more than thirty years. He does not deal with issues surrounding Judaism (e.g., performing works of the law) but with the Gnostic cult. His writings are directed to all believers.

glorydaz said:

They don't eat of the forbidden fruit until the are old enough to choose good over evil, which is exactly how you should know that we don't inherit Adam's sin. Sin came into the world....it didn't come through Adam's corrupted genes. Just like Adam, we each must choose evil over good before we are guilty of sin.

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For personal knowledge, yes.

There is still a quandary of spirit being tied to the flesh.

Which speaks more to the why we sin.

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

This issue I have with what you are saying is that you are suggesting the Eph. 2:8f gift requires some type of lifetime process to obtain... This is direct denial of John 3:16f and you are denying that the sin of this world is unbelief...

This is my rapid counter argument to what you have written.

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The Bible also says we must continue in the faith and persevere.

Jerry Shugart said:

I wouldn't want to ask any more questions at this point. Instead, I would like to see an intelligent answer from some of those who oppose my view to the question of what kind of "death" is spoken of in the following verse in "bold":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Those who insist that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all of his descendants invariably point to the verses at Romans 5:12-20 to try to prove that they are right. But I have yet to see even one of them deal with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner.

Can you think of anyway to prod these people into actually dealing with what is said at Romans 5:12 in a realistic manner?

Thanks!

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People are not born with spiritual life otherwise they would not need to be born again after the Spirit.

glorydaz said:

:dead:

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Why are you so confused? Don't you know that everything was made through the body of Christ? Don't you know we are reconciled to God through Jesus' body? Don't you understand that reconciled means we go back in Christ?

Shasta said:

People are not born with spiritual life otherwise they would not need to be born again after the Spirit.

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We are born with a spirit. We are flesh and spirit. Some people grow up trying to only please their flesh and some are more spiritually incline and want more out of this life.