Substitutionary Sacrifices

WeberHome

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God is not in the habit of sweeping sins under the rug.

Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished

Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked

Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is quite simple: forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.

In other words; though God forgives the guilty, He never clears the guilty; viz: forgiveness in the Old Testament is merely a reprieve; which Webster's defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is sentenced to death. In point of fact, Yom Kippur, though a day of cleansing, is also a day for the Jews to remember that their sins are still on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.

But God has devised a procedure for rescuing the Jews from their rather precarious position.

Isa 53:5-6 . . He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Yhvh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.

Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for substitutions. The soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact, that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for their sins in order to satisfy the law of sin and death which reads like this:

Rom 6:23 . . For the wages sin pays is death,

So; in order for Christ's crucifixion to protect people from a second physical death in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15, it has to be, in some way, accounted as their own crucifixion as well as his; and God has invented an ingenious way for them to do that very thing by means of a baptism that involves neither clergy nor H2O.

1Cor 12:12-13 . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Seeing as how this particular baptism is supernatural rather than physical, then of course it's to be expected to make no sense whatsoever. However, in a nutshell; what this particular baptism does is make people participants in Christ's crucifixion instead of merely observers.

Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:6 . .Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

Gal 2:20 . .I am crucified with Christ

Col 3:3 . .For you died when Christ died

The Watchtower Society agrees that Holy Spirit baptism did occur back in the day, but that it was only temporary. The Society insists that it ceased early-on so that now the one baptism spoken of in Eph 4:5 is the ritual of water baptism. Well; that is very tragic to say the least because it means that every one of the Jehovah's Witnesses alive today is on a road to termination in the lake of brimstone because they are merely observers of Christ's crucifixion instead of participants.

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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
● Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Rom 6:6 . .Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

Gal 2:20 . .I am crucified with Christ

Col 3:3 . .For you died when Christ died

Very good, WeberHome!

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for substitutions.

Just one question. Do we not see a vicarious substitutionary sacrifice here?:

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation" (Lev.1:2-5).​

The Jew who brought the offering placed his head on the animal, thus identifying himself with it. Then the animal was put to death in place of the person who brought the offering.

Then the death of the animal was accepted to make atonement.

What do you think?

Thanks!
 

WeberHome

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Do we not see a vicarious substitutionary sacrifice here? (Lev.1:2-5).

Well; for one thing, a beast is too low on the totem pole to stand in for a human.

Gen 1:26-28 . . And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

. . .So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Ps 8:5 . .You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings

In other words: a substitutionary sacrifice has to be at least equal in value to the person it's replacing; and seeing as how humans are vastly superior to beasts, then they simply don't suffice.

Matt 12:12 . . Of how much more value is a man than a sheep!

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Jerry Shugart

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-In other words: a substitutionary sacrifice has to be at least equal in value to the person it's replacing; and seeing as how humans are vastly superior to beasts, then they simply don't suffice.

The animal sacrifices in the OT were "types" and the "antitype" is the Lord Jesus. Here is an example which speaks of this typical relationship:

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us"
(1 Cor.5:7).​

In the OT the blood of the passover lambs were sprinkled on the doorposts of the houses and the LORD passed over those houses and spared them from destruction.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Spared whom? Was everyone in jeopardy?

It was the firstborn throughout Egypt who was in jeopardy (Ex.12:12).

Did Jesus' death cover transgressions under the first covenant?

"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).​
 

WeberHome

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Did Jesus' death cover transgressions under the first covenant?

According to Deut 5:2-3 and Gal 3:17, the first covenant isn't retroactive. But according to Jer 31:31-34, Rom 3:24-25, Rom 11:26-27, Heb 8:8-12, Heb 9:15, and Heb 10:16-17, the new covenant is retroactive; which is why the Bible can say "all Israel shall be saved". Well; "Israel" goes all the way back to Jacob.

Now this is where it gets interesting. In order for people who lived prior to Christ to be accounted as participants in his crucifixion, they had to be baptized into his body by the Holy Spirit. Exactly when and where this happened for them I don't know, but according to Heb 11:39-40, the Old Testament's faithful weren't made perfect by Christ before us, nor we before them.

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WeberHome

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Spared whom? Was everyone in jeopardy?

Yes everyone, both Jew and Gentile alike.

"For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt.(Ex 12:12)

Were the Jews not in danger it would have been unnecessary for them to paint their doors with lamb's blood.

"And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt." (Ex 12:13)

"For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. (Ex 12:23)

By the same token, Noah was in danger of drowning in the Flood right along with everybody else had he not done as he was told and constructed an ark to save himself.

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WeberHome

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So you believe everyone in Egypt was firstborn, is that right?

Apparently I misunderstood your question; and likewise you apparently misunderstood my reply. What we had was a failure to communicate. Very common problem on internet forums.

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