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View Poll Results: Who is implicitly and explicitly leading the Battle Royale?

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  • PilgrimAgain

    5 38.46%
  • 1013

    8 61.54%
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Thread: BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale VI - PilgrimAgain vs. 1013

  1. #91
    Dee Dee Warren
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    When did Pa become a mod?
    If you were a subscriber you would have known that already

  2. #92
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    2005473
    Both PilgrimAgain and 1013 are both doing a magnificent job of presenting their respective views on this subject.The following are some thoughts that might be of interest.

    1013 uses words from Paul from Acts 17:26 and then says,"So God arranged the nations so that men may seek him."

    He then says,"according to restrictivism,the times set and the exact places for the nations work out to the opposite effect that Paul had in mind."

    Perhaps the following verse teaches that both history and geography have been determined by Godīs purposes toward Israel:

    "When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance,when He separated the sons of Adam,he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel"(Deut.32:8).

    The Lord did that so that the nations would see Israel living in a way that God intended all men to live,and by seeing them living a righteous life the nations would then be drawn to Israel.In that way they would seek God and find Him.

    "Behold,I have taught you statutes and ordinances,even as the Lord my God commanded me,that ye should do so in the land to which ye go to possess it.Keep,therefore,and do them;for this is your wisdom and your understanding IN THE SIGHT OF THE NATIONS,who shall hear all these statutes and say,Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people"(Deut.32:5,6).

    So the Lordīs purpose in setting the bounds for all people was that they would see a righteous nation and be drawn to it.

    But Israel proved to be unfaithful.As time went by,the nation of Israel became a hindrance to Godīs purposes because "the name of God" was "blasphemed among the Gentiles through" them (Ro.2:24).

    And that is why Paul says that the Lord could overlook their ignorance.

    And was it not Godīs purpose that the whole world should have knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ,as it was in Paulīs day.Paul wrote that in his lifetime the gospel had gone to "all the world"(Col.1:6).Therefore,that is why we read that no one can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ.

    But the ministers of the New Testament have not been faithful.The gospel is not now known throughout the world.Perhaps the Lord God will not hold those responsible who have not heard the gospel.Perhaps they will only be judged by the revelation that they have received:

    "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things which are made,even His eternal power and Godhead,so they are left without excuse"(Ro.1:20).

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 20th, 2003 at 06:57 PM.

  3. #93
    Post Modern Fundamentalist 1013's Avatar
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    your take on the acts 17:26 is one that I haven't thought of. See there's an important question that may not be answered is why the arrangement of nations should have much to do with men seeking God. I thought one approach that the restrictivist might take was that the nations would be arranged in a way that they might recieve an evangelist at a certain time to here the Gospel. The problem with the possible restrictivist answer that I gave though is that there are many nations that have perished before evangelists could reach them. Whole nations from South America for instance vanished between hundreds to in excess of a thousand years ago. It would seem that your explanation would also face this problem.

    Now you could say that the world of nations was the world as they knew it, the mediteranean world or the mideastern world, but we have a good reason not to take it in that fasion and that is because Paul speaks of the nations as descending from Adam and eve. So I would think that for that reason, it would have to be applied to all nations universally as they are all descended from Adam and Eve.

    So if we take this as a universal statement of man thus rejecting that the working of this is via the example of israel or that the nations were arranged so that the Gospel would come to them, I'd say there there are at least two more options.

    one is that it is a mystery as to how the arrangement of the nations contributes to the hope that men may respond to God. This is certainly a reasonable option.

    the other option, well actually, I'd say two because I sort of combined them, is that for one, God created man to spread over the earth (as recorded in Genesis) so when men live according to the nature that God desires for them, they are more likely to turn towards him. Furthermore, at one point, humanity united itself under goals that went against God's intentions and that is the story that we read of regarding the tower of Babel. God scattered the nations so that they could not unite against him, so that they might seek him and find him. And of course the tower of babel incident happened against the intention that God had for man to fill the earth.

  4. #94
    Journeyman Scrimshaw's Avatar
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    I agree that both sides are doing a good job at highlighting the arguments that they feel support their positions.

    I tend to judge things based on the logical fall-out of the claim. I think there are some serious logical problems with restrictivism. If it is God's soveriegn will that none should perish, but all attain everlatsting life, it stands to reason that he would soveriegnly provide a means of communicating the necessary saving knowledge to all men. Human beings are finite creatures who have very limited powers and resources. We are an ineffecient mechanism to spread the gospel to ALL men, and history itself has proven that ALL men have not heard the gospel (via human evangelists) before they died. Therefore, it is logically necessary for us to believe that we as human beings are NOT God's "only" vehicle for communicating his saving message.

    For if we are the only mechanism, then God in all His infinite wisdom has failed in providing a sufficient mechanism to fulfill his desire that "none should perish". If God failed to provide the necessary means for satisfying his will, then the logical fall-out is this:

    1) God is Impotent (does not have enough power to succesfully accomplish his will)

    or

    2) God is Unwise. (did not have enough foresight to see or understand that human beings would not be a sufficient mechanism to accomplish his will).
    Last edited by Scrimshaw; January 22nd, 2003 at 02:03 PM.
    SCRIMSHAW

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  5. #95
    Pilgrimagain
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    Originally posted by Scrimshaw
    I agree that both sides are doing a good job at highlighting the arguments that they feel support their positions.

    I tend to judge things based on the logical fall-out of the claim. I think there are some serious logical problems with restrictivism. If it is God's soveriegn will that none should perish, but all attain everlatsting life, it stands to reason that he would soveriegnly provide a means of communicating the necessary saving knowledge to all men. Human beings are finite creatures who have very limited powers and resources. We are an ineffecient mechanism to spread the gospel to ALL men, and history itself has proven that ALL men have not heard the gospel (via human evangelists) before they died. Therefore, it is logically necessary for us to believe that we as human beings are NOT God's "only" vehicle for communicating his saving message.

    For if we are the only mechanism, then God in all His infinite wisdom has failed to in providing a sufficient mechanism to fulfill his desire that "none should perish". If God failed to provide the necessary means for satisfying his will, then the logical fall it is this:

    1) God is Impotent (does not have enough power to succesfully accomplish his will)

    or

    2) God is Unwise. (did not have enough foresight to see or understand that human being would not be a sufficient mechanism to accomplish his will).

    So based on logic alone, PA's position leads to some conclusions that are very devastating to Christianity.
    Just to clarify: Your definition of impotent means completely powerless not somewhat powerless.

    And I must also point out that we have been effected noetically by sin. That is to say our ability to reason has been effected as well as our ability to be righteous. That being said I have to point out that Scrim's appeal to logig is based on the apriori that human logic is suffeciant to understand God in a perfect way, or at the very least it places a human standard/definition of logic and wisdom on God.

  6. #96
    Journeyman Scrimshaw's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Pilgrimagain


    Just to clarify: Your definition of impotent means completely powerless not somewhat powerless.
    Yes, the word is attached to the specific subject at hand. In other words, he was "powerless" to accomplish his intended goal of "none should perish".

    And I must also point out that we have been effected noetically by sin. That is to say our ability to reason has been effected as well as our ability to be righteous. That being said I have to point out that Scrim's appeal to logig is based on the apriori that human logic is suffeciant to understand God in a perfect way, or at the very least it places a human standard/definition of logic and wisdom on God.
    But that is an all-elastic argument that could be stretched to stigmatize any human argument that has ever existed, including all the logical arguments that Paul made in his theologies. For I could say that your logical conclusion that were are all logically flawed cannot itself be true, for you used "logical reasoning" to come to the conclusion that all logical reasong is flawed!

    If you want to claim that you base that conclusion not on human reasoning, but only on what God has clearly revealed in the Bible, then you will need to provide the chapter and verse that specifically states - "man's logical reasoning abilities have been skewed by sin". For if you cannot provide a scripture that states this, then you are coming to that conclusion based on your own human reasoning, which you have already said is skewed, thus, your argument self-destructs.
    SCRIMSHAW

    "Passions act as winds to propel our vessel; our reason is the pilot that steers her, without the winds she would not move; and without the pilot she would be lost". - The French

  7. #97
    Pilgrimagain
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    That's a slippery slope argument and does not hold.

  8. #98

  9. #99
    Journeyman Scrimshaw's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
    That's a slippery slope argument and does not hold.
    What is? My claim that the "skewed human reasoning" idea can be used to stigmatize any argument based on human reasoning? Do you realize that the "slippery slope" fallacy is based on a "human" logic? You see, you are appealing to and using human reasoning and logic in your attempt to argue that the very same thing is invalid. Thus, your argument self-destructs and you should reconsider using it in the future.

    Also, it should be noted that a "slippery slope" scenario only becomes a fallacy when the alleged consequential outcomes of the scenario are proved to be illegitimate. The consequential outcomes I have stated in my argument have not been shown to be illegitimate, thus my argument is not a fallacy.

    Go here and read the proofs for more information:

    http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ss.htm
    SCRIMSHAW

    "Passions act as winds to propel our vessel; our reason is the pilot that steers her, without the winds she would not move; and without the pilot she would be lost". - The French

  10. #100
    Pilgrimagain
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    Well said that. It gives me something to chew on.

  11. #101
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    2005473
    Just a few thought in between this very interesting discussion between Scrimshaw and PilgrimAgain.

    "That they should seek the Lord,if perhaps they might feel after Him,and find Him,though He is not far from every one of us"(Acts17:27).

    PilgrimAgain says:

    "Searching for God is not the same thing as finding God or being found by God.It is the finding (or being found by) of God that saves not the search."

    Please consider what the author of Hebrews has to say about those who "search" for Him:

    "But without faith it is impossible to please Him;for he that cometh to God must believe that He is,and that He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him"(Heb.11:6).

    He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

    Any thoughts on what way the diligent seeker may receive as a reward?

    And any thought on the following words:

    "...for he that cometh to God must believe that He is..."

    He is what? God?

    Does this mean that the sinner must believe in God.PERIOD?

    If that is true,perhaps it explains the words "so they are without excuse" in the following verse:

    "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even His eternal power and Godhead,so they are without excuse"(Ro.1:20).

    In His grace,--Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 22nd, 2003 at 06:49 PM.

  12. #102
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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  13. #103
    Journeyman Scrimshaw's Avatar
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    Jerry,

    There is ample evidence from scripture that God has revealed himself through creation. consider:

    Psalms 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

    Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they display knowledge.

    There is no speech or language
    where their voice is not heard.

    Their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world."


    Verse 2 states that creation itself displays "knowledge". Now, the extent of this knowledge, and whether this knowledge of God can be enough to "save" a diligent seeker of God, is not clearly confirmed or discomfirmed by the Bible. Some argue that Christ's sacrifice provides for the salvation of those who positively respond to the light of Creation and seek God, and that their acceptance of this "knowledge" is an agreement to that covenant, even if they are unable to understand it.

    It is assumed that through Christ, God has provided saving grace for all the handicapped people of the world. For example, many people are born mentally retarded, severely autistic, etc. These people do not have the mental capacity to understand something as complex as the gospel of Christ. If explicit knowledge of Christ is the ONLY ticket into heaven, then all the souls of all the millions of mentally retarded, severely autistic, and all the other mentally handicapped peoples of the world - will be in hell. You'd also have to include all of the millions of very small childen who have died as well, since they never developed the mental capacity to understand or accept the "explicit" gospel of Christ.

    My personal view is that God, in his infinite wisdom, has provided saving grace for all peoples who are disadvantaged, whether that disadvantage is the result of dying as a 2 year old child, or the result of mental birth defects, or whether it be the result of geographical isolation. (being geographically isolated from the gospel). They all are in the same category because none of them have the ability to know/understand the gospel.

    I readily admit that the "inclusive" view cannot be conclusively proven from the Bible. But I think it is the most logically valid deduction, and is certainly more in line with the merciful CHARACTER of God that has been revealed through the life of Christ.
    Last edited by Scrimshaw; January 22nd, 2003 at 07:36 PM.
    SCRIMSHAW

    "Passions act as winds to propel our vessel; our reason is the pilot that steers her, without the winds she would not move; and without the pilot she would be lost". - The French

  14. #104
    Yxboom
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    Originally posted by Knight
    Indeed!
    I second that!

  15. #105
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Scrimshaw,

    I couldnīt agree with you more.Another verse that must be considered is found in the words of Paul at Lystra in regard to the heathen:

    "Who in times past allowed all nations to walk in their own ways.Nevertheless,He left not Himself without WITNESS,in that He did good,and gave us rain from heaven,and fruitful seasons,filling our hearts with food and gladness"(Acts14:16,17).

    It was not His plan to have the nations to walk in their own ways because His original plan was to have all nations see the light of His people,Israel,and in that way come to the knowledge of the truth of God.Israel was supposed to be:

    "You are the light of the world.A city that is set on an hill cannot be hidden...Let your light so shine before men,that they may see your good works,and glorify your Father,Who is in heaven"(Mt.5:14,16).

    At the dedication of the Temple,Solomon said this in regard to the heathen:

    "For they shall hear of Thy great name,and of Thy strong hand,and of Thy outstretched arm...that all people of the earth may know Thy name,to fear Thee,as do Thy people,Israel"(1Ki.8:42,43).

    But because of unbelief the nation of Israel at that time did not fulfill their destiny to become "the light of the world".

    Nevertheless,the Lord would not penalize the heathen for Israelīs unbelief.Instead,He gave them witness that He is God through the revelation of nature.In that way He revealed Himself to those who did not have the knowledge of Him as did the Jews.

    He "witnessed" Who He was to them by His creation (Ro.1:20) and by the fact that He did good.Those who BELIEVED GOD by these revelations were justified by God just as Abraham was justified by God:

    "Abraham BELIEVED GOD,and it was counted to him for righteousness"(Ro.4:3).

    Those who BELIEVE GOD,no matter in what form the revelation comes,are justified before God.

    In His grace,--Jerry

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