Josephus Records Doctrine of Immorality of the Soul and Punishment

Nineveh · Feb 24, 2005

Originally posted by logos_x

Nin...maybe if you were actually paying attention to my arguments you could make a point.

:blabla:

Christ IS the way out of such a place...that IS what I've said all along! He IS successful...completely.

The issue is your are trying to offer Grace where none exists.

There is no could maybe might about Christ's complete victory over sin Hell and death Nin.

For those who believe on Him. You aren't the dispenser of God's Grace. The very best you can do is to tell others of it before they wind up in hell.

Punishment means something...it is NOT a fruitless enterprise in God's and Christ's economy.

No it's not fruitless, it's the Truth. The Truth is, if you reject God, you will be forever without Him. He has every right to kick people out of His abode. Whether you like it or not.

It actually accomplishes something! Not punshment just for it's own sake without any remedy, rather the remedy actually takes hold and Christ taking everything given to Him by God...which last I checked was everything...and giving it all back into God's hands without losing one thing.

Would you please face the fact some don't want to be with God. It started with lucifer, remember? Well, there are some humans who have the same ideas. They think they can do a better job and God is going to let them. Who are you to stand in their way?

In the end God is all in all,

God is not "is all in all". Have you started going to dave's church? That has to be the most pagan thing I've seen you say outright.

death is inoperative, every tear wiped away and no more pain or tears...you can't have it both ways Nin...EVERY tear, NO more pain, death is DEAD, and NOTHING outside because GOD is ALL in ALL.

No, God is not a child molester or a pagan idol, don't be silly. And yes, He does have the authority to vanquish His enemies. I'm not sure what all you missed in the OT where He did just that repeatedly.

Quit trying to force Grace on people who don't want it. God makes distinctions between the righteous and unrighteous, even against your will.

That is Bible....and the punishment has to fit with that ending...It has to fit with Jesus Christ's victory and complete redemption that He came to accomplish.

It does, for those whose faith is in Him.

Nineveh · Feb 24, 2005

Re: Love prevails.........

Re: Love prevails.........

Originally posted by freelight

What is interesting is how one can choose to focus on a concept of eternal and unending punishment......over the magnitude and majesty of divine Love....which is the eternal nature of Deity.

What's even more amazing is how some refuse to see God is Just. He is not a kidnapper and He isn't going to force people to be with Him. Jesus Christ is The Way. Not some essoteric pagan path which leads to nowhere but hell.

You can go ahead and ignore the other half of the story if you like, but let me tell you so you will be without excuse:

If you reject Jesus Christ you will be without God forever.

Nineveh · Feb 24, 2005

Originally posted by Polycarp

What's weird, is that everytime Logos reads the words, "everlasting punishment" they think it, "salvation" . And everytime Logos and her fellows reads the words, "perish" they think "NOT perish" or "salvation" . And when they read the words, 'the worm dieth not" they think, the worm dieth.

When Logos reads the words, eternal it means something else besides eternal. While at the same time "eternal" is used scores of time to mean the endless worship of God as it is to mean the endless punishment of sinners.

Even when the word is so explicit, the heretic reads it just the opposite and then refers to the explicit meaning as some "Satanic" thing. It is the tool used over and over by the cults.

I agree....

Some like to try being "nicer than God". It seems to me they are following in lucifer's footsteps.

logos_x · Feb 24, 2005

Originally posted by Nineveh

:blabla:

:blabla:

The issue is your are trying to offer Grace where none exists.

Who are you to say where grace ends?

For those who believe on Him.

On the contrary...the Bible says:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom 5:14 Yet Death reigned as king from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned, as Adam did, against Law. And in Adam we have a type of Him whose coming was still future.
Rom 5:15 But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.
Rom 5:16 And it is not with the gift as it was with the results of one individual's sin; for the judgement which one individual provoked resulted in condemnation, whereas the free gift after a multitude of transgressions results in acquittal.
Rom 5:17 For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:18 It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You aren't the dispenser of God's Grace.

Nor are you.

The very best you can do is to tell others of it before they wind up in hell.

I know.

No it's not fruitless, it's the Truth.

It is fruitless...because it isn't true.

The Truth is, if you reject God, you will be forever without Him.

If you reject Him forever...then yes, this would be so.
But I believe God's will prevails over all others, and His grace is irresistable.
That is what the Bible says to me,...how 'bout you?

He has every right to kick people out of His abode. Whether you like it or not.

He also has the right to save whoever He damn well wants to, whether you like it or not.

Would you please face the fact some don't want to be with God.

Then God fails where we need Him most!
How do they know what they want?
Nin..you need to face the fact that ECT is pointless, makes a mockery of God's justice and Grace, and has done nothing to save anyone whatsoever!
What is it about this doctrine that glorifies God? Does it inspire trust or faith? Inform us of His love? or show forth His wisdom? cause us to know His character?

It started with lucifer, remember?

And it ends with God being all in all, remember?

Well, there are some humans who have the same ideas. They think they can do a better job and God is going to let them. Who are you to stand in their way?

Me? I'm just a man who believes that God will do what men thinks is impossible.
As for standing in their way....He IS God, and last time I checked...HIS will prevails, not Lucifer's and those who follow him.
It is precisely this problem that God's grace heals Nin. That is what salvation means.

God is not "is all in all". Have you started going to dave's church? That has to be the most pagan thing I've seen you say outright.

Nin, do at least try to follow along....

In the end God is all in all:

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

No, God is not a child molester or a pagan idol, don't be silly. And yes, He does have the authority to vanquish His enemies. I'm not sure what all you missed in the OT where He did just that repeatedly.

Its what you have missed that I was trying to point out...but you still missed it.

Quit trying to force Grace on people who don't want it.

It's better to force people to burn for all eternity than to force grace upon them?
This IS the flaw in ECT.
Using the ECT doctrine, in the past they justified torture and inquisitions to "force" repentance..saying it is better to suffer now those pains than to suffer forever.
Today...it's just the opposite!
If they want to go to Hell...let them!

You can have it that way if you want.

Not me!

God makes distinctions between the righteous and unrighteous, even against your will.

So...God will impose His will only in the fashion you believe in. Couldn't possibly do it the way the Bible actually says!

Sorry "bout ya...but I'm going to believe Him over you.

It does, for those whose faith is in Him.

Don't worry...that will be everyone!

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Nineveh · Feb 24, 2005

Originally posted by logos_x

Who are you to say where grace ends?

I'm not the one trying to. I'll simply sticking with what God has to say about it.

On the contrary...the Bible says:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You are missing where John says those who don't believe are dead already, aren't you?

Rom 5:14 Yet Death reigned as king from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned, as Adam did, against Law. And in Adam we have a type of Him whose coming was still future.
Rom 5:15 But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.
Rom 5:16 And it is not with the gift as it was with the results of one individual's sin; for the judgement which one individual provoked resulted in condemnation, whereas the free gift after a multitude of transgressions results in acquittal.
Rom 5:17 For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:18 It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Well, you certainly have convinced me you can cut and paste. But you haven't convinced me God will not exile people from His presence.

Nor are you.

I'm not the one trying to force people into heaven, you are.

I know.

But why? It's only a temporary unpleasentness one "might" endure for a little while until God forces them into heaven.

It is fruitless...because it isn't true.

Only according to your theology.

If you reject Him forever...then yes, this would be so.

I didn't see anything in the Bible that said anything like, "those who reject are dead already, EXCEPT...." That's your exception, not God's.

But I believe God's will prevails over all others, and His grace is irresistable.

I believe you are wrong.

Either God is a kidnapper and He will force "love" or He isn't and people can choose to love Him or be apart from Him.

I see the Bible supporting the latter. I see you supporting the former.

That is what the Bible says to me,...how 'bout you?

Personally, since you asked....

I think you like your ears tickled and you will ignore anything that proves God is Just. It makes you uncomfortable.

He also has the right to save whoever He damn well wants to, whether you like it or not.

I never said He wouldn't save those who accpet Him and damn those who reject. Barring those who have never heard the Name of Christ, I didn't see any other options given.

Then God fails where we need Him most!

I think you are failing to to let people decide if they want to follow Christ or not. Forced "love" isn't love.

How do they know what they want?

By being told the Truth. It's "pretty lies" that distort and confuse.

Nin..you need to face the fact that ECT is pointless, makes a mockery of God's justice and Grace, and has done nothing to save anyone whatsoever!

Jesus didn't seem to think so when He told us of the Lake of Fire. I didn't think so when it was my time to choose, either.

What is it about this doctrine that glorifies God?

Your doctrine doesn't glorify anyone. It turns God into a kidnapper with sick desires of "forced love".

The Bible paints a picture of a Just and Righteous God who does not tolerate evil. His version of love is not forced but comes willingly from the heart of an individual.

Does it inspire trust or faith? Inform us of His love? or show forth His wisdom? cause us to know His character?

Did for me.

And it ends with God being all in all, remember?

Pardon you dropped one of your "is"s.

But let's look at what lucifer told Eve, shall we?

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman."

Sounds a lot like what you are saying.

Me? I'm just a man who believes that God will do what men thinks is impossible.

Like being born of a virgin? Saving men from hell? Raising from the dead?

Personally, I don't think God is obligated to do anything He didn't promise, even if you really really want Him to.

As for standing in their way....He IS God, and last time I checked...HIS will prevails, not Lucifer's and those who follow him.

That's right. HE is God, you aren't. So, if someone doesn't want to be with God, God, nor you are going to force them. God because He is Just, you because you don't have that ability.

It is precisely this problem that God's grace heals Nin. That is what salvation means.

And believe it or not, some don't want it. No matter how hard you try, God is not going to force Grace on people.

Nin, do at least try to follow along....

:blabla:

In the end God is all in all:

To a pagan, God "is all in all".

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Not only can you cut and paste, you can take things out of context too! "all in all" is a far cry from "is all in all". Nice try, though.

Its what you have missed that I was trying to point out...but you still missed it.

You are absolutely right. I missed every instance where God forces people to repent and accept Christ.

It's better to force people to burn for all eternity than to force grace upon them?

According to you righteousness and unrighteousness and the consequences of those two states of being are forced.

According to God, it starts in an individual's heart and it's their choice whom they will serve.

This IS the flaw in ECT.

Looks like your flaw.

Using the ECT doctrine, in the past they justified torture and inquisitions to "force" repentance..saying it is better to suffer now those pains than to suffer forever.
Today...it's just the opposite!
If they want to go to Hell...let them!

Huh?

Don't even try laying the sins of the RCC at the feet of the Gospel.

You can have it that way if you want.

I am quite powerless to change what God has said.

Not me!

Obviously you don't think you are.

So...God will impose His will only in the fashion you believe in. Couldn't possibly do it the way the Bible actually says!

I'm not the one into twisting Scriptures to mean God forces anything on anyone, that's your hat trick.

Sorry "bout ya...but I'm going to believe Him over you.

I dare you to! Polycarp has dared you to. Unfortunatly your security blanket of God forcing people to do things on your behalf so you feel better is too much for you to give up.

Don't worry...that will be everyone!

Except those not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Woohoo! That cut and past finger is burnin' today!

Try these on:

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb ...

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

logos_x · Feb 24, 2005

Originally posted by Nineveh

I'm not the one trying to. I'll simply sticking with what God has to say about it.

Right......

You are missing where John says those who don't believe are dead already, aren't you?

Nope

Well, you certainly have convinced me you can cut and paste. But you haven't convinced me God will not exile people from His presence.

You got something agaist cuting and pasting? The wrds are relevent and there is no need to type them over if you have 21st century technology.

And you will remain unconvinced no matter what is said, no doubt.

I'm not the one trying to force people into heaven, you are.

And this proves what?
You would rather see billions burn forever..and you somehow think that no force is involved there...are you forgetting Satan's influences?

But why? It's only a temporary unpleasentness one "might" endure for a little while until God forces them into heaven.

You really ARE ignorant aren't you.

Only according to your theology.

And not according to yours.

I didn't see anything in the Bible that said anything like, "those who reject are dead already, EXCEPT...." That's your exception, not God's.

you should just stop at "I didn't see"....

I believe you are wrong.

And I believe YOU are wrong.

Either God is a kidnapper and He will force "love" or He isn't and people can choose to love Him or be apart from Him.

Nope
Either God is the savior who really does love everyone, and will do what He intended from the beginning, Or He doesn't and won't and will delight in burning billions forever.

I see the Bible supporting the latter. I see you supporting the former.

And this is supposed to make you some kind of heroic person, and prove your own fidelity to scripture, no doubt.

Personally, since you asked....

I think you like your ears tickled and you will ignore anything that proves God is Just. It makes you uncomfortable.

And you are wrong.

I think you are failing to to let people decide if they want to follow Christ or not. Forced "love" isn't love.

Punishment just for punishments sake isn't love...saving someone from endless misery is love.

By being told the Truth. It's "pretty lies" that distort and confuse.

Oh...yeah,right.
Since your lie isn't pretty it must be true?

Ugly lies are just as effective at distorting and confusing, as you have amply demonstrated.

Jesus didn't seem to think so when He told us of the Lake of Fire. I didn't think so when it was my time to choose, either.

No..nor did I.
But then I learned the intentions of God once the Holy Spirit lead me into more and more truth.

Your doctrine doesn't glorify anyone. It turns God into a kidnapper with sick desires of "forced love".

Christ being completely successful in the salvation of all mankind doesn't glorify God?
It turns God into a kidnapper with sick desires?

And eternal conscious torment turns God into a loving father God?

You really are twisted!

The Bible paints a picture of a Just and Righteous God who does not tolerate evil. His version of love is not forced but comes willingly from the heart of an individual.

At least you have this much right!

Pardon you dropped one of your "is"s.

But let's look at what lucifer told Eve, shall we?

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman."

Sounds a lot like what you are saying.

Can you spell SALVATION?

To a pagan, God "is all in all"

Then the Bible is pagan?

yet more twisted thinking...

Nineveh · Feb 24, 2005

Originally posted by logos_x

Right......

Well, at least we agree on that point

Nope

Then why are you failing to discern a difference between righteous and unrighteous?

You got something agaist cuting and pasting? The wrds are relevent and there is no need to type them over if you have 21st century technology.

You got something against a point?

And you will remain unconvinced no matter what is said, no doubt.

Same back 'atcha

And this proves what?

Well, basically it's proving you seem to like to accuse others of what you yourself are doing.

You would rather see billions burn forever..and you somehow think that no force is involved there...are you forgetting Satan's influences?

Actually, no, I don't want to see people reject Christ. But thanks for asking.

Satan can no more force someone who isn't willing than God will force someone to accept Him. Satan because he doesn't have the ability, God because He is Just.

You really ARE ignorant aren't you.

You really are a blustering blow hard, aren't you?

And not according to yours.

Nope, because I don't see the Bible painting God as a kidnapper or disfunctional by forcing people to love Him.

you should just stop at "I didn't see"....

Why? Because the rest of it makes you uncomfortable? It's not in there. Your exceptions to God's rules don't exist.

And I believe YOU are wrong.

So much for what we respectively believe then huh?

The picture you paint of God isn't the one presented in scripture.

Nope
Either God is the savior who really does love everyone, and will do what He intended from the beginning, Or He doesn't and won't and will delight in burning billions forever.

That's what happens when you leave the hearts of men out of the equation. God loves the world so much He was willing to die for it, and did. That doesn't mean we get to skip the part about willingly placing our faith in Him.

And this is supposed to make you some kind of heroic person, and prove your own fidelity to scripture, no doubt.

Another pointless paragraph.

And you are wrong.

It certainly seems the thought of eternal torment is uncomfortable to you. That's why you've been putting up this fuss. Not because the Bible is found to support you, but because the thought of people choosing hell doesn't sit well with your theology.

Punishment just for punishments sake isn't love...saving someone from endless misery is love.

That's what Christ offers people right here and right now, hope.

Sending people where they desire to be is more loving than forcing them to be where they don't want to be or with a God they hate.

Oh...yeah,right.
Since your lie isn't pretty it must be true?

So far you haven't proven your case. You've offerd a false hope based on ignorance of the Bible and a theological need to save even those who don't desire it.

Ugly lies are just as effective at distorting and confusing, as you have amply demonstrated.

I guess Jesus was all wrong, since it's Him I'm listening to on the subject.

No..nor did I.
But then I learned the intentions of God once the Holy Spirit lead me into more and more truth.

The Holy Spirit told you that the Lake of Fire isn't eternal? Would you happen to have that direct quote so we can compare with the witness of Scripture?

Christ being completely successful in the salvation of all mankind doesn't glorify God?

Where does God offer Grace to those who do not have faith in Him?

It turns God into a kidnapper with sick desires?

No, you are doing that.

And eternal conscious torment turns God into a loving father God?

Yes.

But then again, I don't believe God is doing anything more to them than letting them be with the one they love most.

You really are twisted!

No, what's twisted is forcing an unrepentant child molester into heaven with his victims. That is twisted.

Something else that's twisted is forcing someone you love into an iron box with no doors or windows to show them you love them.

Can you spell SALVATION?

Yes.

C H R I S T

And some, even though you hate the idea, do not want His Grace.

Then the Bible is pagan?

No, that would be your theology.

yet more twisted thinking...

Better check what the those verses say compared to the idea of God being "is all in all".

And, since you lopped it off... what are you going to do with those names of people not written in the Book of Life?

freelight · Feb 24, 2005

Love still prevails......

Love still prevails......

Originally posted by Nineveh

What's even more amazing is how some refuse to see God is Just. He is not a kidnapper and He isn't going to force people to be with Him. Jesus Christ is The Way. Not some essoteric pagan path which leads to nowhere but hell.

You can go ahead and ignore the other half of the story if you like, but let me tell you so you will be without excuse:

If you reject Jesus Christ you will be without God forever.

Indeed God never forces his love on anyone (although it is an all-pervading Reality being omnipresent). Free will is certainly honored within the parameters allowed by divine providence. The issue is that God is the not the enforcer of eternal punishment or torment...but that each soul brings such upon himself by his own love of evil and willful sin (transgressing divine laws). Each soul chooses for himself heaven or hell...every moment of his existence....starting in this life. The law of compensation(sowing and reaping) is universal and exact in the economy of a souls condition.

Eternal punishment however is not JUST. The law of free will and compensation works in the case of all souls - each shall choose their lot and realm of habitation in this life and the life to come. Justice would never impose a punishment/penalty upon a soul that would charge a soul to be eternally tormented beyond remedy or hope of reform/rehabilitation.

Eternal punishment/torment can only be inflicted upon a soul if such a soul chooses this kind of life eternally - however,....in divine providence....eternal mercy is ever available and the divine Love is extended to all to receive salvation/deliverance....as long as they can repent, call upon the Lord...and truly aspire heavenward.

The only possible deterrant to this possibility of salvation or attainment of heaven is if a soul can reach a point of no return therefore making it impossible for that soul ever for all eternity to be saved from his hell-state. However,....this would have to be speculated....but in the light of Gods eternal and omnipotent Love....I choose to believe in and hope for the ultimate victory of Love and the triumph of divine Will. Gods Love is eternally potent and his arm is not too short that it cannot save. Gods Love is given to all - the wicked and the good alike.

Eternal torment is only possible if a soul could theoretically choose to live in a hell-like state forever and ever by its own free will. This however could never be imposed or enforced by a God of Love and Wisdom who desires all to be saved and enjoy the life of heaven. In my research so far....there are many aspects and dimensions within this subject of the souls destiny and the heaven and hell states in the afterlife. Be assured that God is Just and Merciful thru-out and His love eternally reaches out to all in whose very being there still exists the possibility of salvation and repentance. This rings true for me by inner witness. I go with the witness of the Spirit and discard any doctrine that is not consistent with the character of my Heavenly Father.

I think this seems good to me and the Holy Spirit. - for remember Gods Spirit is Love, Light and Truth. These are the Radiant qualities of Gods divine nature. They are eternal.

paul

Nineveh · Feb 24, 2005

Re: Love still prevails......

Re: Love still prevails......

Originally posted by freelight

Each soul chooses for himself heaven or hell...every moment of his existence....starting in this life.

Where does Christ fit into this?

Eternal punishment however is not JUST.

Just so I get a bearing on where you are coming from...

Is the death penalty "just"?

The law of free will and compensation works in the case of all souls - each shall choose their lot and realm of habitation in this life and the life to come. Justice would never impose a punishment/penalty upon a soul that would charge a soul to be eternally tormented beyond remedy or hope of reform/rehabilitation.

Is God allowed to draw the line?

Eternal punishment/torment can only be inflicted upon a soul if such a soul chooses this kind of life eternally - however,....in divine providence....eternal mercy is ever available and the divine Love is extended to all to receive salvation/deliverance....as long as they can repent, call upon the Lord...and truly aspire heavenward.

Eternal mercy. Where is this idea found in the Scriptures?

The only possible deterrant to this possibility of salvation or attainment of heaven is if a soul can reach a point of no return therefore making it impossible for that soul ever for all eternity to be saved from his hell-state. However,....this would have to be speculated....but in the light of Gods eternal and omnipotent Love....I choose to believe in and hope for the ultimate victory of Love and the triumph of divine Will. Gods Love is eternally potent and his arm is not too short that it cannot save. Gods Love is given to all - the wicked and the good alike.

You chosen belief and hope has no bearing on the reality of the Lake of Fire. Nor does it have any bearing on those who choose to reject Christ.

Eternal torment is only possible if a soul could theoretically choose to live in a hell-like state forever and ever by its own free will. This however could never be imposed or enforced by a God of Love and Wisdom who desires all to be saved and enjoy the life of heaven. In my research so far....there are many aspects and dimensions within this subject of the souls destiny and the heaven and hell states in the afterlife. Be assured that God is Just and Merciful thru-out and His love eternally reaches out to all in whose very being there still exists the possibility of salvation and repentance. This rings true for me by inner witness. I go with the witness of the Spirit and discard any doctrine that is not consistent with the character of my Heavenly Father.

When one is placed outside of God's presence, that means they are placed outside of hope, love and redemption. No where does the Bible state a human soul is free to travel between places. In fact the one parable Jesus told on this subject said travel was impossible.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’"

I think this seems good to me and the Holy Spirit. - for remember Gods Spirit is Love, Light and Truth. These are the Radiant qualities of Gods divine nature. They are eternal.

How much of you understanding is taken from buddhism?

freelight · Feb 24, 2005

Love never fails...........

Love never fails...........

Originally posted by Nineveh

Where does Christ fit into this?

Hi Nin,..............I figured you might ask this as it is central to your theological system and paradigm of 'salvation' - what you have been trained to believe in and the field of perspective from whence you draw conclusions about the souls destiny, etc. My former statements remains 'as is' to be weighed according to its own truth. It is essential to read and contemplate the statements in light of their spiritual truth and validity......without bringing in a concept or context from outside and from a pre-conceived religious system or mode of thought. Reading the words for their own value 'as is' is recommended. 'Christ' may or may not have anything to do with the former statements. It still remains a truth that each soul chooses for itself heaven or hell by its way of life, thoughts, deeds, actions, motives, etc. All souls reap what they sow....and the station, condition and destiny of every soul is governed by spiritual laws.

Just so I get a bearing on where you are coming from...

Is the death penalty "just"?

A death penalty imposed on earth is not eternal punishment/torment. If one believes in 'an eye for an eye' - then for them.....a murderer being punished by death is just. In earthly and heavenly matters....God alone is the true Judge of all. Jesus however repudiated the 'eye for an eye' teaching with his teaching of love, mercy, forgiveness, compassion, blessing. So...let each decide as wisdom leads on this ethical issue.

I have shared enough on this subject how that eternal punishment cannot be just as it makes no sense, besides being illogical to love, wisdom and divine clemency. One needs to get his own revelation of God(Love) on this one....as it is apparent no amount of logical, intellectual elaborations are efficacious - one must by Gods Spirit receive his own illumination of Love and come into the knowledge of God...which is eternal Life.

Only an unjust, merciless, vile, evil, monstrous, heart-less King/God would confine souls to eternal punishment with no remedy or hope of salvation. Only an eternity of evil, sin and willful rebellion against what is true, good and beautiful could merit a reaping of an eternity of pain, suffering, punishment and misery - however,....as I shared before....it is a philosophical question as whether it is possible for a soul to continue in or eternally remain in an evil/sinful state. Only if it is possible for a soul to continually remain in willful sin and rebellion....can it be possible for that soul to reap what he is sowing for all eternity. If one presumes that God steps in (at some point in the souls career) and lays down a punishment for this soul for all time and eternity - then that soul must have committed a sin so grievous that it merits eternal punishment. However it cannot be proved but only speculated that a soul can forever be casted out of Gods presence or cast itself out of Gods presence forever. This poses many philosophical questions still. I choose to believe that Gods Love is eternal and His mercy is everlasting.

Justice is enforced in the heart/principle of the law itself (the law of compensation). The laws are just and equity is exact in the universe. Merciful ministry and divine love helps are ever offered to souls who have the potential to avail themselves of heavenly helps. Just punishment is only just in that its duration and severity is equal to the crime committed. In all cases where divine Will grants a soul the opportunity for reform/rehabilition......opportunity will be afforded that soul to be reconciled with God - this will of course include the souls effort to reach heavenward, make restitution, repent and have a true spiritual transformation or change of heart. (Yes, it is true that some things are 'earned' in Gods Kingdom.....partuclarly concerning advancements/promotions). As long as Gods Love is still available for a soul it will always be present and do all the good it can to see it recover, repent, progress and be restored.....enabling it to ascend even higher....in the Way. It is not heavens will that any perish.....and it surely is not heavens will that any souls be eternally punished/tormented or damned for all eternity.

Is God allowed to draw the line?

Yes, Deity has already established laws that govern the growth/destiny of all things/beings. Since God is the true and eternal Judge....his judgements are always just and merciful....meaning they are always tempered with Love and Wisdom.

Eternal mercy. Where is this idea found in the Scriptures?

Gods very nature is Love....and He is merciful, gracious, full of loving kindness and tender mercies. If God is eternal,....logically...all his divine attributes are part of his constitution being eternal - "I AM the Lord, I change not". "His mercy(love) endures forever and ever". Love never fails. If you have a knowledge of the Bible...you would know the scriptures pertaining....and if you have the Holy Spirit...you would know the nature/manner of God.

You chosen belief and hope has no bearing on the reality of the Lake of Fire. Nor does it have any bearing on those who choose to reject Christ.

Spiritual insight and sensitivity to the divine always comes first in all things - then one may translate scripture or encryptions in their true light/meaning with the logos of the Spirit. Again,....it is recommended you follow the commentary upon its own worth...without superimposing a pre-programed paradigm of learned belief/tradition. This way you free yourself to think without the scaffoling of dogma and entrenched belief structures. Look upon the commentary for what is inherently true within their statements. Could you do that without the imposition of 'Christ' and the 'lake of fire' and all that imagery? It just may be possible that there are other ways of interpretation and greater light to be had upon these issues as we open/expand our consciousness to receive a fuller understanding. It is hard however for those who have erected/enshrined within their minds 'beliefs' that hinder and make further spiritual light/research more difficult to break thru.

When one is placed outside of God's presence, that means they are placed outside of hope, love and redemption. No where does the Bible state a human soul is free to travel between places. In fact the one parable Jesus told on this subject said travel was impossible.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’"

That parable is just a parable....and commentators have various views on it relative to our discussion. Its only one illustration and not meant to be some kind of absolute truth. It is of course known...in spiritualist teachings...that there are barriers between spirtual worlds/realms/spheres....but as souls earn higher realms of light...they may pass thru these barriers as they earn the right to.

How much of you understanding is taken from buddhism?

Interesting that you ask......but I have only read one book on Buddhism ......more in its Zen-aspect....and found it wonderful...already confirming many insights within. My understandings are always expanding and I glean from many schools, teachers, teachings....but at last....the true teacher is always the Spirit. Schools, teachers, etc. serve only to connect us with the anointing that teaches(the inner teacher). The unction of the Spirit teaches what no man can teach....and is the true authority or divine witness...in individual experience. Consult Johns teaching on this.

"They shall all be taught of God" ; "The Spirit of truth shall lead, guide and teach you all things".

So....I am not well versed in Buddhist technologies or philosophy..(as Balder might be)....although naturally...the wisdom in that tradition is kin to the perennial wisdom in all traditions. I am currently venturing thru other paths now.....in my journey(bringing all facets together in the diamond light). Its always wonderful.

I would recommend expanding your knowledge as you feel the need to do so (for your own expansion of consciousness)...and that it couldnt hurt to look into the logics behind 'Universal Reconciliation' and other sensible forms of 'christian inclusion universalist' teachings. They make more sense to me in some essential aspects - my spiritualist/spiritist studies also add more light upon the souls eternal journey and the various dimensions of the Afterlife. Even as far as I've gone....there is still so much more to learn in Gods University. Staying in one room or class does not always enable one to see the greater View and universality of Truth that exists in the whole Academy of higher learning. Always here to assist in exploring...in the 'freelight' tradition.

All quests begin with quest-ions....and nothing is ever found until it is sought - yet in the spiritual journey... asking, seeking and knocking are perpetual.

paul

logos_x · Feb 25, 2005

Originally posted by Nineveh

Then why are you failing to discern a difference between righteous and unrighteous?

When and where have I failed to discern a difference between righteousness and unrighteousness?

Well, basically it's proving you seem to like to accuse others of what you yourself are doing.

Seems to be a common problem....as you do the same thing yourself

Actually, no, I don't want to see people reject Christ. But thanks for asking.

Good. Neither do I.
And you are quite welcome.

Satan can no more force someone who isn't willing than God will force someone to accept Him. Satan because he doesn't have the ability, God because He is Just.

Indeed.
My view doesn't say God forces anything...but it does say that everyone will bow their knee and every toungue confess that Jesus is Lord.....that everyone will choose Christ's victory for themselves eventually.

You really are a blustering blow hard, aren't you?

Only when the occasion forces the issue

Nope, because I don't see the Bible painting God as a kidnapper or disfunctional by forcing people to love Him.

Well, good. Neither do I.

Why? Because the rest of it makes you uncomfortable? It's not in there. Your exceptions to God's rules don't exist.

Yes they do exist...and I've pointed out a few on this thread and others.

The picture you paint of God isn't the one presented in scripture.

Yes it is.

That's what happens when you leave the hearts of men out of the equation. God loves the world so much He was willing to die for it, and did. That doesn't mean we get to skip the part about willingly placing our faith in Him.

You are right...we do get to choose.
At the same time God's will prevails.
That is one of the miracles of salvation, is it not?

It certainly seems the thought of eternal torment is uncomfortable to you. That's why you've been putting up this fuss. Not because the Bible is found to support you, but because the thought of people choosing hell doesn't sit well with your theology.

Yes it IS uncomfortable.
I confess...the idea of eternal torment seems to me to be the most monsterous concept ever concieved.
What is surprising to me is it isn't seen for what it really is by otherwise sensible Christians like yourself.
Eternal conscious torment is an very disturbing doctrine that deserves to be questioned...and I don't see how anyone can wrap their minds around the concept without severing themselves from their feelings completely, or cracking under the strain.

Fortunately...millions of others feel the same way.

That's what Christ offers people right here and right now, hope.

Indeed He does

Sending people where they desire to be is more loving than forcing them to be where they don't want to be or with a God they hate.

Again...the idea of force seems to be the real problem you are having. But God is capable of saving to the uttermost without involving force.
You need to recognize the difference between force and power.

So far you haven't proven your case. You've offerd a false hope based on ignorance of the Bible and a theological need to save even those who don't desire it.

Nor have you proven yours. Only a pagan concept of the afterlife read into the text of scripture and a theological need to have sinners burn forever without hope of redemption, and a belief that people know what it is they desire.

The Holy Spirit told you that the Lake of Fire isn't eternal? Would you happen to have that direct quote so we can compare with the witness of Scripture?

Yes He did.
And the direct quotes are in scripture...so no "comparison" is necessary.

Where does God offer Grace to those who do not have faith in Him?

He does it all the time..with all men...even you.
It is God's grace that saves..and gives you even the ability to choose and to have faith.
Even your faith is a gift Nin...you didn't work it up on your own.

What's twisted is forcing an unrepentant child molester into heaven with his victims. That is twisted.

Yes that would be quite twisted.
It also has nothing to it that even remotely resembles what I have been saying.
Only those in Christ are saved Nin. I have NEVER said otherwise!

Something else that's twisted is forcing someone you love into an iron box with no doors or windows to show them you love them.

Indeed.
And your point would be what?
How is this relevent to our discussion?

C H R I S T

Very good!

And some, even though you hate the idea, do not want His Grace.

Yes...they do!
They want it!
They just don't know they do.

And, since you lopped it off... what are you going to do with those names of people not written in the Book of Life?

Either the Lake of fire purges those thrown into it of all sin...and they die to their rebellion, and all evil is burned away from their souls
or..
They are burned up, never to rise again.
They are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone...which is the second death.

Some things to consider:

Fire is an agent of CHANGE.

And Brimstone....

G2303
θεῖον
theion
thi'-on
Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.

G2304
θεῖος
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Consider the possibilities!

Nineveh · Feb 25, 2005

Re: Love never fails...........

Re: Love never fails...........

Originally posted by freelight

Hi Nin,..............I figured you might ask this as it is central to your theological system and paradigm of 'salvation' - what you have been trained to believe in and the field of perspective from whence you draw conclusions about the souls destiny, etc.

No, actually I came to that conclusion from reading the Bible.

My former statements remains 'as is' to be weighed according to its own truth.

Christ claims to be the Truth. You are free to reject that or accept it.

Interesting that you ask......but I have only read one book on Buddhism ......more in its Zen-aspect....and found it wonderful...already confirming many insights within. My understandings are always expanding and I glean from many schools, teachers, teachings....but at last....the true teacher is always the Spirit. Schools, teachers, etc. serve only to connect us with the anointing that teaches(the inner teacher). The unction of the Spirit teaches what no man can teach....and is the true authority or divine witness...in individual experience. Consult Johns teaching on this.

Ok.

I hope you don't feel I am being rude when I say: To me, you sound like a pagan who uses Christianity when you feel the need to have an air of authority.

Nineveh · Feb 25, 2005

Originally posted by logos_x

When and where have I failed to discern a difference between righteousness and unrighteousness?

Every time you force Grace on the unrighteous.

Indeed.
My view doesn't say God forces anything...but it does say that everyone will bow their knee and every toungue

If you had stopped there you would have remained Biblical... but you don't you continue....

confess that Jesus is Lord....that everyone will choose Christ's victory for themselves eventually.

The Bible doesn't say that. It says:

‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

You are adding that "every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord and every heart will believe Christ rose from the dead." God doesn't say that. God knows not everyone wants to be with Him.

Well, good. Neither do I.

Then why do you paint Him that way?

Yes they do exist...and I've pointed out a few on this thread and others.

Out of context. However, if taken in context, God never makes the promise all will be saved. The opposite is true. While God desires all to be saved, those not written in Christ's Book of Life won't be.

Yes it is.

You believe so, I have no doubt.

You are right...we do get to choose.
At the same time God's will prevails.
That is one of the miracles of salvation, is it not?

Forcing someone to do something against their will isn't a miracle. Nor is it Biblical.

God doesn't make the promises you want Him to fulfill.

Yes it IS uncomfortable.

So uncomfotable in fact it drove me to the Feet of Christ.

I confess...the idea of eternal torment seems to me to be the most monsterous concept ever concieved.
What is surprising to me is it isn't seen for what it really is by otherwise sensible Christians like yourself.

I don't see God as a monster kidnapper. I see God as Just and Holy. The things God does we may not agree with may be due to our misunderstaning of His Holiness.

There are only two options for eternity. Be with Him or be without.

What you should be seeing as a "monsterous concept" is that some choose be be without. You can't lay the will of a man at God's feet. God created a "good" place that we messed up. God fixed our seperation from Himself. He has done everything except what you try to force Him to do... overpower the will of men to force them to love Him.

Eternal conscious torment is an very disturbing doctrine that deserves to be questioned...and I don't see how anyone can wrap their minds around the concept without severing themselves from their feelings completely, or cracking under the strain.

And I can't see how you refuse to allow people their freewill in the matter. God does. God doesn't want people with Him that don't want to be. Paul expresses this in terms of warfare. How many terrorists would you force to live with you in your own home?

Fortunately...millions of others feel the same way.

Sad but true.

Again...the idea of force seems to be the real problem you are having. But God is capable of saving to the uttermost without involving force.

Really?

Those that hate God aren't forced? You mean to say all of a sudden for no reason at all the most died in the wool Baal worshiper will just up and honor God in his heart?

Sorry. I don't see that presented in Scripture either.

I do see that in the last days preople will not tolerate sound doctrine, though.

You need to recognize the difference between force and power.

From your last paragraph on this point, all I can imagine is you start out by saying, "Once upon a time in a perfect world far far away where the evil hearts of men could love something other than themselves ..."

Nor have you proven yours. Only a pagan concept of the afterlife read into the text of scripture and a theological need to have sinners burn forever without hope of redemption, and a belief that people know what it is they desire.

What pagan concept is that? Pray tell.

btw....Christ spoke in terms of eternity on this subject.

I find myself in good company.

Yes He did.
And the direct quotes are in scripture...so no "comparison" is necessary.

Cop out.

You said you used to believe what the Bible said until a spirit changed your mind. What did this spirit whisper in your ear that you began to reject the Word?

He does it all the time..with all men...even you.

I was without God's Grace until I repented and accepted Christ. Then God rained Grace on me like a river.

It is God's grace that saves..and gives you even the ability to choose and to have faith.

I also had the opportunity to reject at that moment.

Even your faith is a gift Nin...you didn't work it up on your own.

Had I chosen to reject Him I would still be lost. He didn't force me to repent.

Yes that would be quite twisted.
It also has nothing to it that even remotely resembles what I have been saying.
Only those in Christ are saved Nin. I have NEVER said otherwise!

Oh please.

You believe at some mysterious point everyone will accept Christ. That's not how the story goes.

Indeed.
And your point would be what?
How is this relevent to our discussion?

Because in the real wolrd that's exactly what you are offering. There is no way out for those who do not want to be with God.

Yes...they do!
They want it!
They just don't know they do.

You sound like a godless liberal. "I know what's best for you." Some, in fact the majority, who choose the wide path don't agree with you.

Either the Lake of fire purges those thrown into it of all sin...and they die to their rebellion, and all evil is burned away from their souls
or..
They are burned up, never to rise again.
They are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone...which is the second death.

Neither is found in Scripture.

The Bible paints a picture of people who choose to love themselves spending eternity in sorrow and dispare.

Some things to consider:

Fire is an agent of CHANGE.

And Brimstone....

G2303
θεῖον
theion
thi'-on
Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.

G2304
θεῖος
theios
thi'-os
From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Consider the possibilities!

Now, for the third time, consider those who are not written in the Book of Life.

And something else for you to ponder. How many times in the OT did Israel rebel? Why didn't God do His magic trick of "all accepting" back then?

freelight · Feb 25, 2005

authenticity

authenticity

Originally posted by Nineveh

No, actually I came to that conclusion from reading the Bible.

..........................

Christ claims to be the Truth. You are free to reject that or accept it.

............................

I hope you don't feel I am being rude when I say: To me, you sound like a pagan who uses Christianity when you feel the need to have an air of authority.

Hi Nin,...........what is written so far I think has been adequate as far as my essential views on the topic at hand. I have never applied the term 'pagan' in my spiritual bio ........and I have no need to use 'Christianity' to give my commentaries an air of 'authority'. Common sense, spiritual soundness, reason, wisdom, intellectual integrity, etc. speaks for itself. Truth is the highest religion and is its own witness. Truth is living, dynamic, ever-unfolding.

paul

Nineveh · Feb 25, 2005

Re: authenticity

Re: authenticity

Originally posted by freelight

Truth is the highest religion and is its own witness.

Christ is the Truth.

freelight · Feb 25, 2005

looking deeper

looking deeper

Originally posted by Nineveh

Christ is the Truth.

The subject or quest-ion of 'Truth' would probably best be suited for another thread - I could see such in a more metaphysical and/or philosophical vein. I will say however that 'Truth' is greater than a 'personality/personage' or an idea/concept. Truth existing as a divine, original and absolute Reality is much greater than anything that a merely evangelical christian motto such as 'Christ is the Truth' can capture, expound or possibly articulate. While such a statement may contain relative implications to the nature of spiritual truth concordant with Jesus and dimensions of his person, teachings, etc.........it does not adequately cover or articulate the nature, constitution of what Truth is. To explore these dimensions would take us into a greater expanse inclusive of any religious paradigms and transcending them. Even Jesus did not answer Pilate when asked 'what is truth'(as far as that record goes).....although an apocryphal gospel records Jesus as saying 'Truth is from heaven'.....showing that Truths majesty exists an all pervading reality whose dynamics may include personalities yet be transpersonal in its metaphysical nature. We are left to further explore the question - "What is truth?". Stay with it......ponder on the question in its depth. Do not be so quick to give pat religious answers that you have been trained/indoctrinated to supply. Look afresh and be serious in meditating upon the inquiry.

As far as the teaching of eternal punishment goes (which is on-topic)...it has been sufficiently proven invalid, asides from those who contend that 'God can eternally punish whomever he wants to' kind of attitude....that doesnt really fly in the face of reason...and other factors already covered.
The doctrine of the immortality of the soul has more room for exploration and soundness - but even this varies given the context of perspective.

Take a real good look at what you believe and have taken as being 'true' or as 'truth'.

paul

Nineveh · Feb 25, 2005

Re: looking deeper

Re: looking deeper

Originally posted by freelight

The subject or quest-ion of 'Truth' would probably best be suited for another thread - I could see such in a more metaphysical and/or philosophical vein. I will say however that 'Truth' is greater than a 'personality/personage' or an idea/concept.

I believe Christ is exactly who He says He is. I believe He is the Truth. You are free to believe as you like. Christ spoke of the Lake of Fire in eternal terms. I don't see anywhere He supports differently.

Truth existing as a divine, original and absolute Reality is much greater than anything that a merely evangelical christian motto such as 'Christ is the Truth' can capture, expound or possibly articulate.

I can see where such a simple concept might trip you up. It's clear concise and absolute.

While such a statement may contain relative implications to the nature of spiritual truth concordant with Jesus and dimensions of his person, teachings, etc.........it does not adequately cover or articulate the nature, constitution of what Truth is. To explore these dimensions would take us into a greater expanse inclusive of any religious paradigms and transcending them.

In english:

To understand Christ we have to look through the lens of paganism.

If you didn't get this from buddhism, where did you get it?

Even Jesus did not answer Pilate when asked 'what is truth'(as far as that record goes).....although an apocryphal gospel records Jesus as saying 'Truth is from heaven'.....showing that Truths majesty exists an all pervading reality whose dynamics may include personalities yet be transpersonal in its metaphysical nature. We are left to further explore the question - "What is truth?". Stay with it......ponder on the question in its depth. Do not be so quick to give pat religious answers that you have been trained/indoctrinated to supply. Look afresh and be serious in meditating upon the inquiry.

As far as the teaching of eternal punishment goes (which is on-topic)...it has been sufficiently proven invalid, asides from those who contend that 'God can eternally punish whomever he wants to' kind of attitude....that doesnt really fly in the face of reason...and other factors already covered.
The doctrine of the immortality of the soul has more room for exploration and soundness - but even this varies given the context of perspective.

Take a real good look at what you believe and have taken as being 'true' or as 'truth'.

Look, I'm not going to read through this rather verbose post. If you don't believe there is a hell, let me state clearly, there is. If you want to avoid being there, repent. Accept Christ.

Other than that, I don't put much weight in your (fill in the blank) eschatology. I consider this to be an important point. If you are telling the truth, no one will ever know/care. If God is telling the Truth, you will know forever.

logos_x · Feb 25, 2005

Originally posted by Nineveh

Now, for the third time, consider those who are not written in the Book of Life.

They are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.
I answered that already.

And something else for you to ponder. How many times in the OT did Israel rebel? Why didn't God do His magic trick of "all accepting" back then?

Because it wasn't time.

Nineveh · Feb 26, 2005

Originally posted by logos_x

They are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

Where do you find this to be a temporay place?

Because it wasn't time.

He could have saved Himself, and us a whole lot of trouble if He had done this trick then. Even better, why not before the flood?

logos_x · Feb 27, 2005

Originally posted by Nineveh

Where do you find this to be a temporay place?

If, as the Bible declares, it is the will of God that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, that God always accomplishes His will, that in the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord...which cannot be done without the Holy Spirit, and God will be all in all when its all finished...and death is dead, hell is emptied, and sin is no more...every tear wiped away, no more pain, sorrow, or unrighteousness, (universally) all things under His subjection, and the problem of evil finally resolved then....

The Lake of fire and brimstone is a place that facilitates that end, and therefore, MUST be part of the cure of evil, not its continuence under conditions of burning and torture forever and ever.

He could have saved Himself, and us a whole lot of trouble if He had done this trick then. Even better, why not before the flood?

Because this is all a part of Gods purpose.
We are not in a plan "B" situation.

Christ was slain "before the foundation of the world".
The creation was for Him from the beginning. It was God's intention to redeem the world BEFORE He even started making it...As an expression of His glory, and His power to not only create...but preserve and save to the uttermost.

Everything that happens happens for a purpose in God's economy...and this present evil age, indeed ALL ages are no exception. God is able to accomplish what He intends to. And this whole world, and all ages from the beginning revolve around the cross of Christ and His resurrection...His redeeming Grace.

All happens in God's time...not ours

Josephus Records Doctrine of Immorality of the Soul and Punishment

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