ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

Right Divider said:

Of course not. Where would you get such an idea?


Of course Peter talks about an earthly kingdom, that is Israel's destiny.

2Pet 1:11 (KJV)​

(1:11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
​

Notice that the "entrance SHALL be ministered unto you".


Yes.

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As with election in the Body, that passage you cited concerning The Little Flock is also the issue of election - of THEIR election - which is the issue of service, not of salvation.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

In other words, be the servants you have been called to be as saints so that when He returns, He will find you being the good servants He has called you to be.

Jerry Shugart said:

The Jews who were denying the Lord Jesus spoken of here belong to the nation which the Lord redeemed or bought out of Egypt:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

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This is an ingenious solution, Jerry. But i don't think it will work. There is a comparison of those in that (Moses') day with these in this (Peter's audience's) day, with reference to the "Lord" who bought them. I see that. But "Lord" is used in the foregoing chapter 5 times, and always in reference to Jesus Christ, and 4 references to God, that are not accompanied by the word "Lord". Are you saying that the first verse of chap 2 is referring to God now?

Now a question for you. The Scriptures reveal that the Christian already possesses eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom he has given eternal life "shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

How is it possible for those who have already received eternal life to lose their salvation?

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We are also seated with God in the heavenlies already, so I suppose the question can be expanded to ask whether someone seated with God in the heavenlies could be cast down.

I don't really know if I understand the seated in the heavenlies reference--does it mean that we have status with God because we are in Christ Jesus, who is seated there "physically"? or does it mean that we actually have a piece of ourselves, some spiritual piece, perhaps, that is present with the Lord already? It seems like it is a status we have "in Christ", and can't be used to say that we are there personally yet.

In your two verses, John might be talking about the same thing, that is, a reference to a standing we have in Christ, that we don't have if we are not in Christ. Certainly you would agree, that if we are not "in Christ", then we haven't that standing, right? So if we believed at one time, but no longer believe, do we still have that standing of being "in Christ" and all that entails?

Right Divider said:

Of course not. Where would you get such an idea?


Of course Peter talks about an earthly kingdom, that is Israel's destiny.

2Pet 1:11 (KJV)​

(1:11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
​

Notice that the "entrance SHALL be ministered unto you".


Yes.

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Good point about 2Pet 1:11--I missed that in my quick scan. But I might still be confused about how an earthly kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Is this in/on the new heavens and new earth?

musterion said:

Attempts at Mexican standoffs with Scripture will not be acknowledged.

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Leave it to you to project your daily practice of that as being what another was up to :chuckle:

Derf said:

This is an ingenious solution, Jerry. But i don't think it will work. There is a comparison of those in that (Moses') day with these in this (Peter's audience's) day, with reference to the "Lord" who bought them. I see that. But "Lord" is used in the foregoing chapter 5 times, and always in reference to Jesus Christ, and 4 references to God, that are not accompanied by the word "Lord". Are you saying that the first verse of chap 2 is referring to God now?

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The Greek word translated "Lord" at 2 Peter 2:1 is despotēs and it is not used in the NT to refer specifically to the Lord Jesus but it is used in regard to the Godhead.

We are also seated with God in the heavenlies already, so I suppose the question can be expanded to ask whether someone seated with God in the heavenlies could be cast down.

I don't really know if I understand the seated in the heavenlies reference--does it mean that we have status with God because we are in Christ Jesus, who is seated there "physically"? or does it mean that we actually have a piece of ourselves, some spiritual piece, perhaps, that is present with the Lord already? It seems like it is a status we have "in Christ", and can't be used to say that we are there personally yet.

In your two verses, John might be talking about the same thing, that is, a reference to a standing we have in Christ, that we don't have if we are not in Christ. Certainly you would agree, that if we are not "in Christ", then we haven't that standing, right? So if we believed at one time, but no longer believe, do we still have that standing of being "in Christ" and all that entails?

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We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance (Ro.11:29). Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

So are you saying that once a person has received eternal life he can perish even though the Lord Jesus says otherwise?

Derf said:

We can make the assumption that Peter meant something different from what he said, like just the church attenders, including those that weren't regenerate, but then we have to question our motives, don't you think?

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:think: Need a bit more elucidation to meaningful respond....

Derf said:

"One's" may be a little nebulous, don't you think. Let's say that "one" refers to a 16 year old unbeliever who is just getting ready to go to a church service for the first time. is that young man's standing before God eternally and unconditionally fixed and secure in Christ? If so, then it's fixed as a negative, not a positive. Yet in an hour the condition might be different.

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Perhaps in temporal language. Names are already in the BoL.

Derf said:

So turn that around, and let's talk about a believer that is about to enter a Richard Dawkins crusade, if you'll allow the term. In that crusade, he will hear about how evolution explains all of life, and there is no need for God. This happens, regularly! My question, simply, is: "if a believer no longer believes, is his eternal security secure?

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Or "did he/she ever have it?" 1 John 2:19 seems to say "no."
"How does a Christian know?" I can say I'm positive God exists. It is Faith, but not faith on sinking sand. Rather it is built upon a solid rock.

Derf said:

Good point about 2Pet 1:11--I missed that in my quick scan. But I might still be confused about how an earthly kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Is this in/on the new heavens and new earth?

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The earthly kingdom will continue even into the new earth. It's just that simple.

A little confusion btw:

Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?
OP: Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

One seems to be about repentance for salvation and the other seems about works resulting from salvation or to keep it.

:idunno:

Lon said:

A little confusion btw:

Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?
OP: Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

One seems to be about repentance for salvation and the other seems about works resulting from salvation or to keep it.

:idunno:

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The idea that salvation by grace through faith can be "lost" comes from mixing prophecy with mystery.

It's just plain wrong.

Lon said:

A little confusion btw:

Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?
OP: Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

One seems to be about repentance for salvation and the other seems about works resulting from salvation or to keep it.

:idunno:

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To stop sinning (the common misdefinition of repent) is a "work of righteousness" when it's presented as a condition of being saved. It automatically becomes something he does to earn God's favor.

Anyone who claims to believe in salvation without works by grace alone through faith alone in Christ, but also defines repent as stop sinning and tells unbelievers to "repent" in that sense, is preaching salvation by works...the work being, "Clean up your life first if you want to get saved."

musterion said:

To stop sinning (the common misdefinition of repent) is a "work of righteousness" when it's presented as a condition of being saved. It automatically becomes something he does to earn God's favor.

Anyone who claims to believe in salvation without works by grace alone through faith alone in Christ, but also defines repent as stop sinning and tells unbelievers to "repent" in that sense, is preaching salvation by works...the work being, "Clean up your life first if you want to get saved."

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Yep :thumb:

musterion said:

To stop sinning (the common misdefinition of repent) is a "work of righteousness" when it's presented as a condition of being saved. It automatically becomes something he does to earn God's favor.

Anyone who claims to believe in salvation without works by grace alone through faith alone in Christ, but also defines repent as stop sinning and tells unbelievers to "repent" in that sense, is preaching salvation by works...the work being, "Clean up your life first if you want to get saved."

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Thanks. Pelagianism full blown then. The Mormon lads who came to my house today preached the same.

Lon said:

Thanks. Pelagianism full blown then. The Mormon lads who came to my house today preached the same.

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Then Lordship Salvation, as preached by MacArthur and many Reformed/evangelicals, is in the same boat. Of course Calvinistic assumptions are at work there but it's really the same.

musterion said:

Then Lordship Salvation, as preached by MacArthur and many Reformed/evangelicals, is in the same boat. Of course Calvinistic assumptions are at work there but it's really the same.

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In this case, I disagree with MacArthur and likely still do (not sure where exactly his theology is on the matter today). I do believe when I'm saved, He is Lord, but on this, I'd think you and I are close to or on the same page.
For me, the new-creation nature, has Jesus Christ as Lord and He is working in us and through us for His purposes.
-Lon

Btw, I did not vote in the poll. I think new creations are remade to go the other way (repentance). So for me, it is part and parcel to salvation. However one understands it based on their understanding, it comes before and/or after salvation, if that makes sense. I'm not really caught up with the question of 'when' as I am about one being remade a new creation by the work of Christ. My analogy of being saved by the Coast Guard is: If we are both standing on deck (salvation in Our Lord Christ Jesus), how we got there might intellectual. In Him -Lon

musterion said:

Is being willing to clean up one's life, to turn from sin, or to stop sinning a required part of getting saved?

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Baptism is a passive activity, it's done to you, you are baptized, you don't baptize (unless you baptize somebody else).

John 3:16 (KJV) doesn't say anything about sin or repentance. Confer Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Galatians 3:22 (KJV) Galatians 3:26 (KJV)

Nihilo said:

Baptism is a passive activity, it's done to you, you are baptized, you don't baptize (unless you baptize somebody else).

John 3:16 (KJV) doesn't say anything about sin or repentance. Confer Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Galatians 3:22 (KJV) Galatians 3:26 (KJV)

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Your infants have no choice because they have no will yet. It's imposed on them yet you give it magical powers, like salt in the mouth.

Your converts have to work to be in fellowship you by submitting to your water baptism, if they've not received some water baptism elsewhere than you'll accept.

Lon said:

In this case, I disagree with MacArthur and likely still do (not sure where exactly his theology is on the matter today). I do believe when I'm saved, He is Lord, but on this, I'd think you and I are close to or on the same page.
For me, the new-creation nature, has Jesus Christ as Lord and He is working in us and through us for His purposes.
-Lon

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The main problem with LS is that it requires unbiblical work of both the potential convert (to make sure they're repentant per the usual misdefinition) and of the believer to make sure he/she really did repent. It all goes back to trying to ascertain the impossible: that one really is of The Elect and not a false convert. It was invented to address the insecurity and doubt that has plagued Augustinians since the start.

musterion said:

Your infants have no choice because they have no will yet. It's imposed on them yet you give it magical powers, like salt in the mouth.

Your converts have to work to be in fellowship you by submitting to your water baptism, if they've not received some water baptism elsewhere than you'll accept.

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Not to intrude on this conversation, but what then would you say is the significance of baptism?