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Thread: ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

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    Over 2000 post club elected4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Calvinism is driven by God's 'control', while OT is driven by His character (love and goodness; free will is not the main issue, but a means to the end of love and relationship).

    Since sovereignty is providential, not meticulous, and since God is omnicompetent, not omnicausal, I declare victory for OT.
    Who cares what you declare? It is not a settled issue. Remember God is vengeful and does hate also. To deny that is to deny the counsel of scripture.
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elected4ever View Post
    Who cares what you declare? It is not a settled issue. Remember God is vengeful and does hate also. To deny that is to deny the counsel of scripture.

    God hates, but not in the Calvinistic sense of flipping a coin and deciding to hate some and send them to hell apart from anything in the person and loving others into heaven...though He could have decreed to love and save others...its view of love (partial vs impartial; limited vs unlimited) and goodness is flawed in order to uphold control divorced from character (hence the need to appeal to 'mystery' rather than Scripture to defend the indefensible).

    What are you doing back? I thought you died or something?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Lon, God created man for one reason. To have relations with us. He can not be with sin. God desires all men to come to him and be saved. Are all men saved?
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Lon, God created man for one reason. To have relations with us. He can not be with sin. God desires all men to come to him and be saved. Are all men saved?
    Work on this Nick: Declarative and Prescriptive. If you are having trouble, go read a couple of the links attached to Hilston and AMR.

    Should be enough there for you never having to ask this question again.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 2000 post club elected4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    God hates, but not in the Calvinistic sense of flipping a coin and deciding to hate some and send them to hell apart from anything in the person and loving others into heaven...though He could have decreed to love and save others...its view of love (partial vs impartial; limited vs unlimited) and goodness is flawed in order to uphold control divorced from character (hence the need to appeal to 'mystery' rather than Scripture to defend the indefensible).
    I think I can agree with that. But lets not forget that it is God's foreknowledge that caused God to hate Esau and love Jacup, It is just a matter of God chose the good over the evil. God did not make Esau choose evil. I suppose one way of explaining this contriverse is that God choses to be self limiting.

    What are you doing back? I thought you died or something?
    You disappointed that rumors of my demise were premature?
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Work on this Nick: Declarative and Prescriptive. If you are having trouble, go read a couple of the links attached to Hilston and AMR.

    Should be enough there for you never having to ask this question again.
    In a nutshell?

    This loophole does not make the indefensible (impugn God's character) defensible. There is no secret will in conflict with a revealed will. Decretal ideas are flawed and ultimately make God responsible for evil, contrary to His will and revealed character/ways.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elected4ever View Post
    I think I can agree with that. But lets not forget that it is God's foreknowledge that caused God to hate Esau and love Jacup, It is just a matter of God chose the good over the evil. God did not make Esau choose evil. I suppose one way of explaining this contriverse is that God choses to be self limiting.

    You disappointed that rumors of my demise were premature?
    Choice, not foreknowledge is the issue. In Romans, they also represent nations (see Genesis quote), not individuals (mission, not salvation).

    Love vs hate here is also relative. Jesus said to hate parents in comparison to our love for Him, but this does not mean a wooden literalism or Jesus would be contradicting the Decalogue and the Father.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Over 2000 post club elected4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Choice, not foreknowledge is the issue. In Romans, they also represent nations (see Genesis quote), not individuals (mission, not salvation).
    I really don't think the two can be separated. At least in this debate they cannot.


    Love vs hate here is also relative. Jesus said to hate parents in comparison to our love for Him, but this does not mean a wooden literalism or Jesus would be contradicting the Decalogue and the Father.
    True
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

  9. #84
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Calvinism is driven by God's 'control', while OT is driven by His character (love and goodness; free will is not the main issue, but a means to the end of love and relationship).

    Since sovereignty is providential, not meticulous, and since God is omnicompetent, not omnicausal, I declare victory for OT.
    I see in this, a desire to preserve something, which I value, but it was always an error not to see it in traditional theology. We cannot presume order and hierarchy with His attributes. They are all so intricately part of His complete nature. If you've seen Sovereignty as imperical in Calvinist doctrine, it is merely the fact that He is God and we are but creations and trying to keep those in proper perspective. Emphasis, is not the same as driven, nor is character separate from those mentioned here. Theology, I believe, is a great revealer. You know by one's theology what is most important to him or her. Our divergence seems mostly centered either in our Love and devotion to God, or in our devotion to man. Calvinism, I believe, focuses on God to give Him preeminence in our lives. It can tromp on feelings, things taken for granted, and sensibilities, but I came to the point where I recognized my sensibilities were still somewhat ego-centric. As I began working through scripture, I came naturally to a reformed stance and began aligning what I believed to be true with Calvinist doctrines I'd rejected in the past. For about 10 years, I considered myself a 3 3/4 point Calvinist, partly because I still had to wrestle with it to understand and fit it to scripture, partly because of the resistance from my Arminian upbringing. As you might imagine, it was limited atonement but I also had trouble reconciling irresistible grace and a bit of perseverance of the saints as it related to Salvation.

    Limited Atonement wasn't as big of a hurdle as I'd imagined once I understood what it was and wasn't. It took awhile to get a good explanation. OSAS isn't the same as perseverance of the saints and there is a lot of discussion always going on to clarify what we believe about saints and their perseverance and specifically how it differs from OSAS. OSAS is held by someone in all our camps and because of that, I think it is a can of worms to try and dig through.

    All this to say, I had similar concerns and hadn't seen Calvinists as the loving 'huggy/feely' sort, not until I'd gotten to know a few and see a balance with His Sovereignty and Majesty. As could be imagined, most of my friends are decidedly Arminian. I tend to see our theological perspectives as differing priorities and emphasis on the structure of what is most important to us. As a Calvinist, God's love is very important to me. All of our Theology, I'd hope, would be based on His loving relationship to us.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 2000 post club elected4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I see in this, a desire to preserve something, which I value, but it was always an error not to see it in traditional theology. We cannot presume order and hierarchy with His attributes. They are all so intricately part of His complete nature. If you've seen Sovereignty as imperical in Calvinist doctrine, it is merely the fact that He is God and we are but creations and trying to keep those in proper perspective. Emphasis, is not the same as driven, nor is character separate from those mentioned here. Theology, I believe, is a great revealer. You know by one's theology what is most important to him or her. Our divergence seems mostly centered either in our Love and devotion to God, or in our devotion to man. Calvinism, I believe, focuses on God to give Him preeminence in our lives. It can tromp on feelings, things taken for granted, and sensibilities, but I came to the point where I recognized my sensibilities were still somewhat ego-centric. As I began working through scripture, I came naturally to a reformed stance and began aligning what I believed to be true with Calvinist doctrines I'd rejected in the past. For about 10 years, I considered myself a 3 3/4 point Calvinist, partly because I still had to wrestle with it to understand and fit it to scripture, partly because of the resistance from my Arminian upbringing. As you might imagine, it was limited atonement but I also had trouble reconciling irresistible grace and a bit of perseverance of the saints as it related to Salvation.

    Limited Atonement wasn't as big of a hurdle as I'd imagined once I understood what it was and wasn't. It took awhile to get a good explanation. OSAS isn't the same as perseverance of the saints and there is a lot of discussion always going on to clarify what we believe about saints and their perseverance and specifically how it differs from OSAS. OSAS is held by someone in all our camps and because of that, I think it is a can of worms to try and dig through.

    All this to say, I had similar concerns and hadn't seen Calvinists as the loving 'huggy/feely' sort, not until I'd gotten to know a few and see a balance with His Sovereignty and Majesty. As could be imagined, most of my friends are decidedly Arminian. I tend to see our theological perspectives as differing priorities and emphasis on the structure of what is most important to us. As a Calvinist, God's love is very important to me. All of our Theology, I'd hope, would be based on His loving relationship to us.
    OSAS has more to do with God 's promises than with man's ability to live a perfect life in the flesh. It is God's promise that sustains me and not my ability to live a perfect life while still in human flesh. It is what I once was that I was delivered from and what God has now made me to be that fuels my love for God and righteousness.
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

  11. #86
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    In a nutshell?

    This loophole does not make the indefensible (impugn God's character) defensible. There is no secret will in conflict with a revealed will. Decretal ideas are flawed and ultimately make God responsible for evil, contrary to His will and revealed character/ways.
    No they don't. Here is AMR's (John Piper) and here is Hilston's.

    Decretive means allow rather than desire. God will work with the way things are moving such as "All things work for good." It isn't that God wants us to suffer in order to grow, but that there is no other way. He is working through that which is undesired (sin and its effects) to bring about His desire and love for us.

    His prescriptive will is His commands. What we are expressly called to do or what happens because He decides it will be done. God does not will (command) that sin exist. It is hated by Him. He will work through them to bring about His desires.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elected4ever View Post
    OSAS has more to do with God 's promises than with man's ability to live a perfect life in the flesh. It is God's promise that sustains me and not my ability to live a perfect life while still in human flesh. It is what I once was that I was delivered from and what God has now made me to be that fuels my love for God and righteousness.
    My point was that it isn't just a Calvinist doctrine. I do understand where you are coming from. My biggest caution is that it can lead some who have no right to believe the saved part, presume upon it. I do believe with you, a saint should have assurance from God and His Word.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 1000 post club patman's Avatar
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    Hi Everybody


    I miss this thread.

    Anyone have any changes of heart lately?
    ChristianRevolution.Net - Changing wineskins, at last.

    TouchBible.org - iPhone's Coolest Bible/iPhone Books, Touch Bible.

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    Over 2000 post club elected4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    Hi Everybody


    I miss this thread.

    Anyone have any changes of heart lately?
    Just me I suppose. I am not as obnoxious as I use to be.
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

  15. #90
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    Hi Everybody


    I miss this thread.

    Anyone have any changes of heart lately?
    Hello Pat.

    No changes discernible, but I am praying.

    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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