Catholics vs protestants

Epoisses said:

Catholics for the most part teach a gospel of works and Protestants for the most part teach a gospel of faith. God has sheep in the Catholic church who live up to all the light they have but for the most part it's a corrupt system.

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This is faulty. Catholics teach a works/faith together. Not works alone. Versus Protestants teach a faith alone idealogy.

Also, if you compare the corruption numbers and statistics, the total corruption levels are equal. Which should be frightening since the Catholic church has been around much longer. Such information would lead to a conclusion that Protestant churches get corrupt exponentially faster, since they reached the same level in much less time.

Robert Pate said:

The Gospel says that we are justified by Christ and by Christ alone, plus nothing.

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Where does it say this? I recall James saying that we are justified "not by faith alone," but by our works. Meaning faith and works together. Not either/or, but both/and.

Robert Pate said:

Its very simple. Protestants believe they are justified by faith alone apart from the works of the law.

Catholics believe that they are justified by faith including the works of the law.

The Gospel says that we are justified by Christ and by Christ alone, plus nothing.

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Yeppers.

Romans 3 KJV
(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Romans 3 KJV
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Galatians 3 KJV
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.




Romans 4 KJV
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Galatians 2 KJV
(20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Galatians 3 KJV
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Titus 3 KJV
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

jsanford108 said:

Where does it say this?

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See post #23.

Tambora said:

See post #23.

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Thanks for that.

While I see your argument, it goes against two things:
1.) The entire book of James, specifically James 2:24
2.) Jesus Himself obeyed the laws. We have to look no further than the preparation for the Passover, Christ's attendance to Temple, etc. Christ obeyed Hebrew Law, thereby giving the Jews no excuse to exact any form of punishment upon Him. That is why the Pharisee's had no truthful accusations against Him. And their only charge could be that of blasphemy, due to Christ's extensive use of saying "I Am," and that He and the Father are One.

Tambora said:

Yeppers.

Romans 3 KJV
(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

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As a man Jesus had faith, so are you saying it was not necessary for him to keep the law?

jsanford108 said:

Thanks for that.

While I see your argument, it goes against two things:
1.) The entire book of James, specifically James 2:24

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Or one could just say that the book of James goes against the book of Romans, Galatians, Titus, etc.

Paul's premise is that we are declared righteous as Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE Abraham submitted to circumcision and long BEFORE the law was ever given.
Abraham was declared righteous without the law.

Even the OT maintains that the just live by faith.
And the law is not of faith.

2.) Jesus Himself obeyed the laws. We have to look no further than the preparation for the Passover, Christ's attendance to Temple, etc. Christ obeyed Hebrew Law, thereby giving the Jews no excuse to exact any form of punishment upon Him. That is why the Pharisee's had no truthful accusations against Him. And their only charge could be that of blasphemy, due to Christ's extensive use of saying "I Am," and that He and the Father are One.

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And we know that salvation was available because of the righteousness and obedience of one.




Anyone that is relying on their own righteousness and obedience are relying on the wrong one.
(((HINT: That one ain't you.)))

Tambora said:

Or one could just say that the book of James goes against the book of Romans, Galatians, Titus, etc.

Paul's premise is that we are declared righteous as Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE Abraham submitted to circumcision and long BEFORE the law was ever given.
Abraham was declared righteous without the law.

Even the OT maintains that the just live by faith.
And the law is not of faith.

Galatians 3:11-12 KJV​

(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

And we know that salvation was available because of the righteousness and obedience of one.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV​

(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.​

(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

Anyone that is relying on their own righteousness and obedience are relying on the wrong one.
(((HINT: That one ain't you.)))

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None of your points disprove a faith/works system. Just because they are not justified by the law, that does not rule out works as a product of faith. Nor does "the just live by faith" prove a faith alone doctrine. The just live by faith. Obviously. But that doesn't mean that faith alone is their source of salvation.

As for your "One" arguments: that isn't even relevant to our discussion. What purpose is that quote from Romans supposed to serve?

Hint: At no point has anyone here claimed to be Christ, so obviously "that one ain't" any of us.

Tambora said:

Paul's premise is that we are declared righteous as Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE Abraham submitted to circumcision and long BEFORE the law was ever given.
Abraham was declared righteous without the law.

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Was Jesus declared righteous without the law?

If so then it was not necessary for Jesus to keep the law, right?

Nihilo said:

Protestants and Catholics believe the same thing, namely the following. We all believe that being a member of the Church is salvation now and forever. Membership depends upon baptism and the faith thereof, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

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UN-true ! Being a member of Jesus' body brings salvation NOT membership of a church here on earth.

It is in faith in Jesus NOT faith in a false pope, Mary, Idols, a phony confessional ,and Priests that think control Jesus through their phony mumbo jumbo to bring Him from heaven and place Him in a cookie.

No true Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church have very little in common

dodge said:

UN-true ! Being a member of Jesus' body brings salvation NOT membership of a church here on earth.

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It's the same thing bud.

dodge said:

It is in faith in Jesus NOT faith in a false pope, Mary, Idols, a phony confessional ,and Priests that think control Jesus through their phony mumbo jumbo to bring Him from heaven and place Him in a cookie.

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All I said was faith in the Lord Jesus, you said the other stuff. And baptism. Do you believe in baptism?

dodge said:

No true Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church have very little in common

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You're gonna have to refute what I wrote in order f'this to be substantiated because right now your conclusion looks . . . dodgy. Bud.

Tambora said:

Or one could just say that the book of James goes against the book of Romans, Galatians, Titus, etc.

Spoiler

Paul's premise is that we are declared righteous as Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE Abraham submitted to circumcision and long BEFORE the law was ever given.
Abraham was declared righteous without the law.

Even the OT maintains that the just live by faith.
And the law is not of faith.
Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.




And we know that salvation was available because of the righteousness and obedience of one.
Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Anyone that is relying on their own righteousness and obedience are relying on the wrong one.
(((HINT: That one ain't you.)))

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James rather receives what Paul says and merely asks the reasonable question (Romans 12:1 KJV), OK, OK fine. But where're your good works. You believe in the Lord Jesus Christ's gospel according to Paul and we all agree that it's faith and faith alone that determines membership in the Body of Christ the Church; the faith of Abraham. But, this faith that you're talking about, the faith of Abraham, if you really believe it, then where're your good works? I'm not saying the works justify you in any way, the faith of Abraham, but you are the one claiming you have this faith, and if you do have this faith then you would be doing good works, so where are they? It's reasonable (Romans 12:1 KJV), to ask, if someone is spending so much time emphasizing that works don't justify anybody, well, understanding that good works don't justify anybody, nonetheless, your faith you claim should lead someone such as yourself to do good works, let's have them. In other words James is calling our bluff, those who claim faith alone, the faith of Abraham; all well and good to claim faith alone, but an atheist could claim the same thing (James 2:19 KJV), so let's see your proof that you're not an atheist (James 2:19 KJV), let's see your good works, because if you really believe the gospel according to Paul, the faith of Abraham, then you should be doing good works, so let's see them; let's have them; I call your all-in bet. I call. Showdown. Cards on the table, face-up; I called, so you have to show your hand, and you can slow-roll if you'd like to, nobody cares, but you have to show your hand. Where are your good works? 'Faith of Abraham.

You could say that that is what James is saying, instead of saying that James is anti- or against Paul and the gospel according to Paul. James may simply be saying that we all agree with Paul, the only thing that distinguishes atheists therefore, from Christians, is good works. Paul and those who believe in Paul's gospel (1st Corinthians 15) ought be doing good works, that's what would separate atheists from Christians, especially those Christians who grasp and fully understand the gospel especially according to the Apostle St. Paul.

Galatians 3:7 (KJV) John 8:56 (KJV) Galatians 3:9 (KJV) John 3:16 (KJV) Galatians 2:16 (KJV)

Nihilo said:

It's the same thing bud.
All I said was faith in the Lord Jesus, you said the other stuff. And baptism. Do you believe in baptism?
You're gonna have to refute what I wrote in order f'this to be substantiated because right now your conclusion looks . . . dodgy. Bud.

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You just show your shallowness in the things of God ! Just because you are a member of a church on earth does not mean you have any assurance of going to heaven. Going to heaven has zero to do with where you go to church and everything to do with placing your faith in Jesus, and going to a roman Catholic church does not mean you are a christian anymore them me going to a burger king and then claiming to be a Big Mac.

The evilness of the R.C.C. is clear to see by those that love and follow God.

The rest of the "stuff" is what your church teaches and believes, and it clearly goes against teachings from scripture.

Yes I believe in baptism that is biblical baptism which your church teaches against. NOT one baby in ALL of scripture was ever baptized, and yet your church has taken license and proclaimed itself above scripture by placing UN-supported tradition above scripture.

As I said earlier True Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church have very little in common.

Christians follow Jesus NOT Mary , a pope, and an earthly priest.

Salvation is by grace through faith. But which comes first?

Because of a person's faith, the person will be vetted by the Father as a candidate for salvation.

[MENTION=83]Nihilo[/MENTION]

I liked your post about James, doing works as a believer in Christ.

I sometimes anguish between doing and being as a Christian.

What are the works you were referencing in your post? It seemed a challenge and I wondered what you meant.

Nihilo said:

​

But where're your good works.

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List a couple of good works that you think will qualify one for salvation, and I'll tell ya if I have ever done that work.

Tambora said:

List a couple of good works that you think will qualify one for salvation, and I'll tell ya if I have ever done that work.

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That's what I'm talking about, we agree that no good work qualifies one for salvation, only membership in the Body of Christ saves a person, and that depends upon baptism and the faith thereof; we agree on this. Can't we just read James as saying, "We agree that it is faith alone, but if you actually believe the faith you proclaim to believe, you ought to be doing good works, because that's what you say you believe." It's not even really a call, it's just a reminder that even if no one calls you, you ought still to have good works that you're doing, because you say you believe the faith you proclaim. James himself suggests the most basic of good works himself (James 1:27 KJV).

IOW, it's not saying, "I don't believe you're a Christian, prove it!" but a reminder that, just as both Peter and Paul warn us (1P2:16KJV Ga5:13KJV), to "use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." James says, if you believe the gospel according to Paul, then how do you "by love serve one another" (Ga5:13KJV)? How do you do that? If you are a Christian and you believe the One Christian faith (Ep4:5KJV), then of course you're by love serving one another, so how are you doing that? Where're your good works? Not the good works that save you because we all agree that works do not save but only membership in the Church, which is through faith; the Lord Himself sanctifies His Church (Ep5:26-27KJV) so we're not talking about works that save because none do; the good works that your proclaimed faith believes (Ga5:13KJV Jas1:27KJV).

Now note, that I'm not asking you this, as if I'm demanding you answer me, I'm not challenging anybody's faith, and your good works are none of my business, but if my suggestion about how to read James is anywhere near the truth of the matter, then you should know that the Christian faith/the life of the Church consists of doing good works . . . none the least of which according to Paul is simply providing "for his own, and specially for those of his own house" (1Ti5:8KJV).

Nihilo said:

That's what I'm talking about, we agree that no good work qualifies one for salvation, only membership in the Body of Christ saves a person, and that depends upon baptism and the faith thereof; we agree on this. Can't we just read James as saying, "We agree that it is faith alone, but if you actually believe the faith you proclaim to believe, you ought to be doing good works, because that's what you say you believe." It's not even really a call, it's just a reminder that even if no one calls you, you ought still to have good works that you're doing, because you say you believe the faith you proclaim. James himself suggests the most basic of good works himself (James 1:27 KJV).

IOW, it's not saying, "I don't believe you're a Christian, prove it!" but a reminder that, just as both Peter and Paul warn us (1P2:16KJV Ga5:13KJV), to "use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." James says, if you believe the gospel according to Paul, then how do you "by love serve one another" (Ga5:13KJV)? How do you do that? If you are a Christian and you believe the One Christian faith (Ep4:5KJV), then of course you're by love serving one another, so how are you doing that? Where're your good works? Not the good works that save you because we all agree that works do not save but only membership in the Church, which is through faith; the Lord Himself sanctifies His Church (Ep5:26-27KJV) so we're not talking about works that save because none do; the good works that your proclaimed faith believes (Ga5:13KJV Jas1:27KJV).

Now note, that I'm not asking you this, as if I'm demanding you answer me, I'm not challenging anybody's faith, and your good works are none of my business, but if my suggestion about how to read James is anywhere near the truth of the matter, then you should know that the Christian faith/the life of the Church consists of doing good works . . . none the least of which according to Paul is simply providing "for his own, and specially for those of his own house" (1Ti5:8KJV).

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I don't see "good works" as applying only to the saved.
I expect everyone to act rightly whether they are saved or not.
What "good works" do you think a saved person can do for others than an unsaved person cannot do for others?
visit those in prison
help widows and orphans
love their friends and family
not commit murder
not commit adultery
etc.


I am a saved person.
But I bet that there could be unsaved people that are even nicer to others than me, if you want to go strictly by their behavior.
So if behavior is the determining criteria that separates those that are saved and those that are not .......... Houston we have a problem.
It's going to have to be something other than behavior towards others that separates a saved person from an unsaved person.

Tambora said:

I don't see "good works" as applying only to the saved.
I expect everyone to act rightly whether they are saved or not.
What "good works" do you think a saved person can do for others than an unsaved person cannot do for others?
visit those in prison
help widows and orphans
love their friends and family
not commit murder
not commit adultery
etc.

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I don't think that unbelievers/infidels are prevented in any way from doing good works. I do think that James wrote understanding that membership in the Body of Christ is based only upon faith, and that this faith proclaims that doing good works is part of the life of the Church/the Christian life.

Tambora said:

I am a saved person.

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I've no doubt, though I'm not challenging anybody's faith here anyway.

Tambora said:

But I bet that there could be unsaved people that are even nicer to others than me, if you want to go strictly by their behavior.

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I don't and can't go strictly on behavior since I myself along with everyone I know would be precluded from Church membership if so.

Tambora said:

So if behavior is the determining criteria that separates those that are saved and those that are not .......... Houston we have a problem.

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I'm not saying that and I'm saying that James isn't saying that either.

Tambora said:

It's going to have to be something other than behavior towards others that separates a saved person from an unsaved person.

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I agree with you, but it requires conditions of some sort, or else what Paul says in 1st Timothy 5:8 (KJV) can't be true, but a lie from the pit of hell:

" he hath denied the faith "

dodge said:

You just show your shallowness in the things of God ! Just because you are a member of a church on earth does not mean you have any assurance of going to heaven.

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Rather, you just show your careless reading. I said the Church, not "a church on earth." Pay attention.

dodge said:

Going to heaven has zero to do with where you go to church and everything to do with placing your faith in Jesus

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If you read just a morsel more carefully than you did, you'd see that I wrote the same thing.

dodge said:

going to a roman Catholic church does not mean you are a christian anymore them me going to a burger king and then claiming to be a Big Mac.

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Neither I nor the Church teaches that. Straw man bud.

dodge said:

The evilness of the R.C.C. is clear to see by those that love and follow God.

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The stupidity of those who believe that Matthew 16:18 (KJV) is supposed to read, "And upon the Scripture I will build my Church" is clearer.

dodge said:

The rest of the "stuff" is what your church teaches and believes, and it clearly goes against teachings from scripture.

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"Upon the Scripture I will build," is not found in Scripture.

dodge said:

Yes I believe in baptism that is biblical baptism which your church teaches against. NOT one baby in ALL of scripture was ever baptized, and yet your church has taken license and proclaimed itself above scripture by placing UN-supported tradition above scripture.

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There is One Christian faith and One Baptism, Dodge. Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)

dodge said:

As I said earlier True Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church have very little in common.

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Or, the Catholic Church is Christianity itself, and everybody else in claiming to be the Church apart from her, is a sorry attempt at a substitute, and an imposter; in a word, they are wrong. Matthew 16:18 (KJV) bud. If you're not a member of the Matthew 16:18 (KJV) Church, then you're not saved, you're not a Christian, and you've no guarantee that the gates of hell won't prevail against you. Only members of the Matthew 16:18 (KJV) Church have that assurance.

dodge said:

Christians follow Jesus NOT Mary , a pope, and an earthly priest.

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The Church believes in the Lord Jesus, and so does Mary, and the popes teach what the Lord Jesus teaches, and priests are supposed to do same.