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Thread: Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII

  1. #61
    Veteran Redfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholsmom View Post
    You clearly have not read our post.
    To the contrary! I would never post such a question without having read everything available.

    One of the first things I do when reading debates is look for a definition of terms. How else can one know the actual issue at hand?

    The closest I've seen you come to defining "immoral" is this statement -

    "After careful thought and consideration we have come to the opinion that the only instance in which voting could be definitively considered an immoral act is if a vote is cast for someone who God himself would not command us to obey as a legitimate authority."
    What you have actually done here is defined "voting" as immoral under the stated circumstances, without telling us what "immoral" itself actually means.

    Aside from this, I think you've made the better argument in Round 1.
    Last edited by Redfin; October 1st, 2008 at 11:55 PM.
    "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
    They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
    They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

    -- George MacDonald

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    He put them under Nebuchadnezzar to punish them for turning away from Him and to get them to repent and turn back to Him, according to the prophecies.

    He put them in Egypt to save them from the famine.
    He put them under Pharoh to show His mighty power and to force them to leave Egypt so they could go into the land flowing with milk and honey that He promised to give to them.

    I believe He put them under Hitler to cause the world to bring forth the nation of Israel in a single day to fulfill the prophecy.
    So it doesn't matter WHO we vote for...whatever God wants to happen is going to happen right?
    fidelis usque ad mortem

  3. #63
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Graphite View Post
    Stay tuned, Clete. We're not even halfway. And we will address your concerns in due time. We can't address every person's concern immediately in the first post.

    To everything, turn, turn, turn...
    I'm glad to hear it.
    I'll try to be patient!
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Tambora (October 31st, 2016)

  5. #64
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    Clete,

    Let's suppose there were three people running for president. Someone who believes a certain wicked act should be legal, another who thinks that said wicked act is ok in certain circumstances, and the third who is a Christian Godly man believes that said wicked act is immoral and should never be done.

    Without the benefit of the media (tv, newspapers, web, etc...) who continue to post polls indicating who is leading at the moment...and you had no idea who everyone else was voting for (everyone kept their vote a secret) would you vote for person #2 or #3 in my scenario?

    If your vote isn't for #3, why?

    If your vote is for #2 (and #2 wins), do you believe that you are or are not somewhat responsible for the said wicked acts committed during person #2's time in office (having known full well that the acts would continue prior to voting and knowing your vote helped elect the person)?
    All things being equal I would vote for the godliest man, of course.

    But, unfortunately, we don't live in a universe where all things are equal and the fact is that we are all very much aware that things are not equal. It is literally impossible for Alen Keyes to win the White House during this election cycle. It's not just unlikely, its utterly and completely impossible. Even if he got 100% of the vote in every state that has him on the ballot, he would still do nothing at all but guarantee the White House to Obama.

    As far as this particular battle for the White House is concerned, Keyes is a bigger enemy of McCain than he is of Obama. All Obama has to do to win Colorado is to understand that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If Obama was smart he'd find a way to pump some money and energy into the Keyes campaign in order to further split the conservative vote.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    All things being equal I would vote for the godliest man, of course.

    But, unfortunately, we don't live in a universe where all things are equal and the fact is that we are all very much aware that things are not equal. It is literally impossible for Alen Keyes to win the White House during this election cycle. It's not just unlikely, its utterly and completely impossible. Even if he got 100% of the vote in every state that has him on the ballot, he would still do nothing at all but guarantee the White House to Obama.

    As far as this particular battle for the White House is concerned, Keyes is a bigger enemy of McCain than he is of Obama. All Obama has to do to win Colorado is to understand that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If Obama was smart he'd find a way to pump some money and energy into the Keyes campaign in order to further split the conservative vote.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Fair enough.

    Thanks for the reply.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    So it doesn't matter WHO we vote for...whatever God wants to happen is going to happen right?
    No, it does matter WHO we vote for.

    Our vote is one way that we speak out for righteousness.
    If we vote for a candidate that is running on an unrighteous platform, then we are saying that righteousness doesn't matter.

    If we vote for a candidate that is running on an unrighteous platform in the hopes of preventing another candidate running on an unrighteous platform from getting in office, then we are still voting for unrighteousness.

    If we vote for the most righteous candidate on the ballot, or if we write in the name of a righteous person, then we are are saying that righteousness matters regardless of who actually wins the election.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Keep it short and too the point

    Getting back to the intent of this thread, i.e. Discussion of the Battle Royale XIII...

    It would be better if the participants would go with the KISS method. One or two main points per post, in one or two short paragraphs, not pages and pages with over 10 subpoints. Otherwise people without a lot of time will just stop reading.

  10. #68
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    Stone mason, I have to agree with you, I found that the 1st post of round 2 by GG was long winded and caught myself wanting to skip over paragraphs. That is ineffective debating.

    So far I have to say that NW is doing much better.

    Also,

    It seems to me that according to GG’s argument, a vote for Keyes would also be immoral. McCain has in no way even hinted to any idea that he is going to make a law that forces abortion. So by their definition, McCain is immoral for not being proactive in stopping abortion. If McCain is immoral for not being proactive in stopping abortion, he is also immoral for not being proactive in stopping people from having a proud look, or by passing laws that would put people in prison for causing any kind of disunity amongst other people or by being proactive in punishing ALL who lie to anyone at any time. God hates murder, but he also hates these things as well.

    So unless McCain is personally going to kill babies or he is going to pass a law that makes people kill babies, I just don’t see how it would be different to vote for Keyes.

  11. #69
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    OchOcinco said
    It seems to me that according to GG’s argument, a vote for Keyes would also be immoral. McCain has in no way even hinted to any idea that he is going to make a law that forces abortion. So by their definition, McCain is immoral for not being proactive in stopping abortion. If McCain is immoral for not being proactive in stopping abortion, he is also immoral for not being proactive in stopping people from having a proud look, or by passing laws that would put people in prison for causing any kind of disunity amongst other people or by being proactive in punishing ALL who lie to anyone at any time. God hates murder, but he also hates these things as well.

    So unless McCain is personally going to kill babies or he is going to pass a law that makes people kill babies, I just don’t see how it would be different to vote for Keyes.
    GG’s argument is not that a candidate has to be perfect. It is that he can’t be supportive of something as vile as the shedding of innocent blood.

    God hates a proud look because of what that leads to in the individual, and God has never said that this or causing disunity should be a crime, or even that lying is always wrong (in fact there are many times when God advocates and rewards lying in a just cause).

    But here we are talking about something that God says should always be a capitol crime punishable by death. A crime so hideous that God says the thought of it never even entered His mind!

    John McCain supports the slaughter of completely innocent children while they are in the womb. He not only advocates this, he has supported (by voting for) funding for this. And he has promised to continue this support if he becomes president.

    This is immoral and a vote for him allows the innocent blood that splatters off his soul to stain yours.
    In service of the
    Lion and the Lamb

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    I voted last night. Thank God this mess of backstabbing and posturing for television to buy votes will be over about a month from now, so we can get back to complaining about regular lousy commercials.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Lion

    GG’s argument is not that a candidate has to be perfect.
    I never said anything about the candidates being perfect, I said that GG's argument is based on the candidates being proactive with stopping abortion.

    God hates a proud look because of what that leads to in the individual
    What scripture do you have to back this up? According to Proverbs 6:17, a proud look is an abomination to God.


    16 These six things the LORD hates,
    Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
    17 A proud look,
    A lying tongue,
    Hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
    Feet that are swift in running to evil,
    19 A false witness who speaks lies,
    And one who sows discord among brethren.

    (in fact there are many times when God advocates and rewards lying in a just cause)
    What scripture do you have to support this idea?

    But here we are talking about something that God says should always be a capitol crime punishable by death.
    Do you have scripture for this? If you're going to quote God please include scripture.

  14. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OchoCinco View Post
    Lion



    I never said anything about the candidates being perfect, I said that GG's argument is based on the candidates being proactive with stopping abortion.



    What scripture do you have to back this up? According to Proverbs 6:17, a proud look is an abomination to God.


    16 These six things the LORD hates,
    Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
    17 A proud look,
    A lying tongue,
    Hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
    Feet that are swift in running to evil,
    19 A false witness who speaks lies,
    And one who sows discord among brethren.



    What scripture do you have to support this idea?


    Do you have scripture for this? If you're going to quote God please include scripture.

    Rahab lies to the authority about her knowledge of the Israelite spies’ whereabouts. Her action leads to her being saved from Jericho’s destruction.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Rahab lies to the authority about her knowledge of the Israelite spies’ whereabouts. Her action leads to her being saved from Jericho’s destruction.
    Please show me the scripture where God advocates and rewards Rehab for lying.

    How do you explain Proverbs? Was Solomon lying by saying that God hates lying?

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    Hi guys,

    Just wanted to share an MP3 file from Greg Koukl's website, www.str.org:
    Check out the September 21, 2008 podcast on - Does God Take Sides in Politics?

    http://www.str.org/site/PageServer?p...Radio_Archives

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    Quote Originally Posted by reformed View Post
    Hi guys,

    Just wanted to share an MP3 file from Greg Koukl's website, www.str.org:
    Check out the September 21, 2008 podcast on - Does God Take Sides in Politics?
    How does this relate to the current debate? Does he question whether or not God cares how evil your candidate is? I, and probably most TOLers, aren't interested in the podcast. However, if you tell us your perspective, that would be great!
    grace & peace

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