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Thread: Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII

  1. #46
    Journeyman YahuShuan's Avatar
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    It is immoral to vote for evil, whether Obama or McCain. If they don't follow the commands of Yah, the only votes they receive are immoral votes. And the people would be deceiving themselves. Yah is no respector of any person, if they are evil, they are evil, a vote for either is a vote against the will of Yah, and is a vote for evil. This country is being judged as we speak, and what all opine to do is written in the books.

    Both McCain and Obama have evil in their hearts, and it is shown forth by their fruit. I personally think that if one goes to the polls to vote, they should take that ticket and write upon it "None to rule but those who obey the Elohim of the Bible". It is time for this Nation to repent or perish.

    And in Yahuweh I trust. Pray for a leader to be raised who will follow the "Way of Life". There is a "Declaration of Repentance" circulating, to be issued to the next President of this land at "Inspiration Ministries". Here is the link... http://www.inspirationtoday.com/insp...declrept2.aspx

    Check it out, the time is near when we will no longer have a chance to do anything more. "Choose you this day whom you will serve!"
    YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

    1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.

  2. #47
    Veteran Redfin's Avatar
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    Question

    Has either side even defined what they mean by "immoral?"

    Or is that too obvious to be necessary?

    "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
    They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
    They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

    -- George MacDonald

  3. #48
    Journeyman YahuShuan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfin View Post
    Has either side even defined what they mean by "immoral?"

    Or is that too obvious to be necessary?

    Obvious enough to smack us right in the face. Seems it has the who worlds attention now, lol!
    YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

    1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.

  4. #49
    Over 500 post club nicholsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfin View Post
    Has either side even defined what they mean by "immoral?"

    Or is that too obvious to be necessary?

    You clearly have not read our post.
    Futility: "More than at any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and hopelessness; the other, to total extinction. Let us pray that we will have the wisdom to choose correctly. I speak, by the way, not with any sense of futility, but with a panicky conviction of the absolute meaninglessness of existence."
    - Woody Allen

    Hope:
    Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
    Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
    Philippians 4:6-8

  5. #50
    Over 750 post club The Graphite's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Well fiddle sticks, soon as we posted our new round, we discovered a tiny snippet of our opponents' quoted text got deleted, between the first and second paragraphs.

    It is nothing more than a quote from our opponents, Team NW, so for clarification, this is what they wrote that we are referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by WandererInFog
    Next [second], we evaluate their positions. In this regard we seek a candidate whose positions most closely conform to our views regarding what laws should be enacted and government actions taken.
    It's not an edit, addition or subtraction of anything we wrote, only a clarification of what they wrote that we are referring to in our own unchanged text. Sorry for the formatting boo-boo. Just FYI!

  6. #51
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    If "GG" is going to attempt to win this debate, (which, regardless of the specified question being debating, I am reading the debate as though they are trying to convince me that voting for McCain isn't the best of all available options), GG is not going to succeed by telling me how evil John McCain is. GG is not going to succeed in doing that by telling me "We shouldn't do evil that good may come of it". GG isn't going to succeed in doing that by making one fallacious guilt by association fallacy after another, either.

    [I am, by the way, astonished at the intellectual dishonesty of those on this website (not just in the Battle Royale) arguing what is obviously a very emotional issue. I actually WANT to be convinced that I'm wrong on this issue and you guys seem almost universally incapable of establishing your position without unwarranted name calling, guilt by association fallacies, false dichotomy fallacies, and pure unadulterated emotionalism. Now, as all of you know, I'm all for calling someone an idiot WHEN doing so is called for but many of you have resorted to that sort of thing simply because I and others have held your feet to the fire one too many times. All of you need to repent. If you can't convince me, a man who started this whole thing because he simply wanted to learn the actual arguments, then you've got serious problems and probably should sit back and think about why that's the case.]

    If GG wants to convince me that voting for McCain isn't the wisest course of action, they will have to demonstrate to me how a vote taken away from McCain does not help Obama during this specific election cycle. They will have to establish for me that Obama isn't benefiting from having Alan Keyes running in Colorado. They will have to explain to me how Christians who dilute the effectiveness of their ballot by either voting for a hopeless candidate or not voting at all doesn't make the effort to win the White House easier for the MOST vile of those who do have a real chance of winning.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; October 2nd, 2008 at 06:06 AM.
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  8. #52
    Over 750 post club The Graphite's Avatar
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    Stay tuned, Clete. We're not even halfway. And we will address your concerns in due time. We can't address every person's concern immediately in the first post.

    To everything, turn, turn, turn...

  9. #53
    Over 5000 post club elohiym's Avatar
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    Shouldn't the actual Battle Royal thread be posted in Staff Picks, too?
    "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

  10. #54
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Daniel 2
    1And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
    . . .
    20Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
    21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
    . . .
    37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.



    Jeremiah 29
    1Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;
    2(After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem
    3By the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan, and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, (whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent unto Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon) saying,
    4Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
    5Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;
    6Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
    7And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.
    Now the question is why did He put them under these rulers?

    The other one is what makes you think Americans are God's people?


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  12. #55
    TOL Subscriber chatmaggot's Avatar
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    Clete,

    Let's suppose there were three people running for president. Someone who believes a certain wicked act should be legal, another who thinks that said wicked act is ok in certain circumstances, and the third who is a Christian Godly man believes that said wicked act is immoral and should never be done.

    Without the benefit of the media (tv, newspapers, web, etc...) who continue to post polls indicating who is leading at the moment...and you had no idea who everyone else was voting for (everyone kept their vote a secret) would you vote for person #2 or #3 in my scenario?

    If your vote isn't for #3, why?

    If your vote is for #2 (and #2 wins), do you believe that you are or are not somewhat responsible for the said wicked acts committed during person #2's time in office (having known full well that the acts would continue prior to voting and knowing your vote helped elect the person)?
    fidelis usque ad mortem

  13. #56
    Member of the 10 year club on TOL!! CabinetMaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG
    What a voter should do, in choosing a candidate to approve for office, is to pick someone who advocates God's standard of absolute right and wrong.
    This statement was made in round 2A by team GG. Based on this sentence, it would be a moral imperative NOT to vote for ANY candidate EVER as there is no man who perfectly advocates God's absolute standard. For all have fallen short of the God's glory.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

  14. #57
    Over 750 post club The Graphite's Avatar
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    CM, I believe you should read a little more carefully. You are mistaken. But I will leave our arguments for our posts.

  15. #58
    Member of the 10 year club on TOL!! CabinetMaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Graphite View Post
    CM, I believe you should read a little more carefully. You are mistaken. But I will leave our arguments for our posts.
    I read your whole post. But after that sentence, what more can you say? If you should for the candidate that advocates God's standard of absolute right and wrong, and neither candidate does, then you should not vote for either. If you do, you are choosing the lesser of two evils and violating your obligation to uphold God's standards.

    Is it morally acceptable to vote for the candidate who almost advocates God's standards? If so, which of God's standards can be relaxed to make vote for them acceptable?
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

  16. #59
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Now the question is why did He put them under these rulers?

    The other one is what makes you think Americans are God's people?
    He put them under Nebuchadnezzar to punish them for turning away from Him and to get them to repent and turn back to Him, according to the prophecies.

    He put them in Egypt to save them from the famine.
    He put them under Pharoh to show His mighty power and to force them to leave Egypt so they could go into the land flowing with milk and honey that He promised to give to them.

    I believe He put them under Hitler to cause the world to bring forth the nation of Israel in a single day to fulfill the prophecy.

    Americans are not God's people, but there is a percentage of Americans who actually believe in God.
    That percent is not large enough to vote in a godly candidate, but it is large enough to be heard.

    The day of the return of Jesus is close at hand, and God is making sure that all the pieces are in place to fulfill the prophecies.
    The job of the people who believe in God is to make sure that God's word is heard, whether anyone listens or not.

    We are entering into a time in history where the people who believe in God will have to take a stand against the evil in the world or reject God and follow the world.
    God may (or not) be setting up an evil person to take command of the United States.
    If so, it is for His purposes, and all we can do is speak out against the evil and overcome through our testimony of Jesus.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  17. #60
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    The first post of the second round is up.

    Team GG started by addressing the chain of logic used by team NW, and appears to have succeded in breaking that chain.
    This was done despite using irrelevant examples like trying to figure out why a racist would vote for someone that wasn't a racist.

    After some sniping at team NW, team GG did a good job of answering their questions and disarming the arguments behind those questions.

    The strongest argument presented by team GG was buried in the middle of their new questions:
    McCain is not yet president. He has applied for the job of president, and we have been delegated the authority to decide whether he should be or not, whether we should give him our approval to represent us and to lead us. If he is elected, then at that point we would recognize his authority under God's overarching divine ordination of human government, with the limits upon which both teams agree in this debate. So, Team NW's point is valid only after January 20th of next year, not on or before November 11th.

    At issue here is not at all whether we should rebel against his authority, but how we should exercise OUR authority. We have the authority in this situation. We have authority over John McCain, to approve him for this job, or to withhold approval. We are the human resources department’s hiring committee for the job of president of the United States.
    Team GG weakened their comeback by turning to a number of hypothetical situations and asking their questions.
    GGQ4: Does Team NW think that Paul’s passage about “disputing over doubtful things” regarding what kind of food to eat actually equates to the Nov. 11 election and our consideration of whether to approve one accused of having a pro-abortion record for the job of president of the United States?
    (Speaking for myself and not for team NW) The question rambles, but I would say that it does not equate.
    The passage was about whether believers should confront other believers over trying to follow their conscience about what was sin and the answer was that telling a weaker believer that something was not a sin could cause the weaker believer to do something they believed was a sin.
    This could have been turned into a powerful argument against team NW's entire position (saying it was not immoral to vote for McCain could lead weak believers to doubt and cast a vote for McCain against their beliefs).
    Team GG failed to see this.
    GGQ4: Did I sin by giving this murderer and robber a ride to the bank?
    (The driver did not know the person he was giving a ride would rob a bank and kill the teller).
    No, the driver sinned by sitting there doing nothing while the murderer and robber got away.
    GGQ5: Given those facts, have I participated in the sin of theft and murder?
    (The person told the driver about plans to kill the teller and rob the bank before being given a ride).
    Yes, the driver knowingly aided a murderer and robber.
    GGQ6: Given these facts, have I participated in the sin of robbery and murder?
    (The person told the driver that he was helping a friend who had plans to kill the teller and rob the bank before being given a ride).
    Yes, the driver knowingly aided the murder and robbery by knowingly helping another person who was aiding the murderer and robber
    GGQ7: Which one are you going to support, knowing that eventually one will succeed in getting in? To whom do you give your key?
    (Repeat of GGQ2 from first round).
    The question was not valid the first time and nothing has changed since then.
    GGQ8: Is it immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to kill this innocent child?
    GGQ9: Is it immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to fund the killing of this innocent child?
    GGQ10: Is it immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to use his power as President to keep it legal to kill this innocent child?
    I am very confused by GG asking these three questions.
    GG has still not stated WHY they believe that it is immoral to vote for McCain/Palin and now they are asking team NW to figure out what the team GG arguments should be.

    In round two, team GG had started making a comback from a poor showing in round one, but ended where they started from by not being able to state their position and resorting to asking team NW to tell them if they were on the right track.
    I really wish team GG knew the answers to the last three questions they asked because they could have been the basis for winning the Battle Royal.
    As it stands, the last three questions seem to be saying that team GG isn't sure they should even be in the debate.
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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