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Thread: Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII

  1. #31
    Over 500 post club nicholsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Did ya happen to see the giant banner on the TOL home page?
    I did. It is wonderful. I am honored by its presence. Nicely done, Knight.
    Futility: "More than at any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and hopelessness; the other, to total extinction. Let us pray that we will have the wisdom to choose correctly. I speak, by the way, not with any sense of futility, but with a panicky conviction of the absolute meaninglessness of existence."
    - Woody Allen

    Hope:
    Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
    Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthyŚmeditate on these things.
    Philippians 4:6-8

  2. #32
    Registered User Just Tom's Avatar
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    WN first post was well done.. Many points that were well thought out. Though I don't believe that they are insurmountable at all.

    I will enjoy reading this as the first two post were very succinct which is nice for people like me with short attention spans...

    As of right now this could go either way because of how the topic is framed.

    Nice job people keep up the good work....

  3. #33
    Over 2000 post club Alate_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Why?

    If a fetus is a human (and it is) then the things they do to these helpless, voiceless humans are just as hideous (if not more so) than anything done in Germany.

    - Burning with chemicals
    - Dismemberment
    - Scissors to the back of the head
    - Brains sucked out
    - Etc.

    These are the things these innocent little babies suffer when the abortion "doctor" enters the room.
    It wasn't the reference to abortion ITSELF I was objecting to, it was the comparison with respect to McCain's supposed "support" for it. Abortion may be legitimately compared to genocide in some cases but McCain's role in the matter is hardly that of Hitler's, which was the implication of the examples posted.

  4. #34
    Over 750 post club The Graphite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alate_One View Post
    It wasn't the reference to abortion ITSELF I was objecting to, it was the comparison with respect to McCain's supposed "support" for it. Abortion may be legitimately compared to genocide in some cases but McCain's role in the matter is hardly that of Hitler's, which was the implication of the examples posted.
    You read too much into it, and you assume too much. We made no comparison of McCain to Hitler.

    That much should be increasingly clear in coming rounds.

  5. #35
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novice View Post
    If you really believe that abortion is murder in all cases then it is immoral to support a man who has admitted he will murder some children (as McCain has made it clear he supports abortion/murder in many instances).

    Supporting murder is immoral. (Romans 1:32 )

    End of debate.

    Next!
    I would have liked to see GG state this in the first round post.
    Learn to read what is written.

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    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  6. #36
    Over 2000 post club Alate_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Graphite View Post
    You read too much into it, and you assume too much. We made no comparison of McCain to Hitler.

    That much should be increasingly clear in coming rounds.
    If you say so . . . You also compare stem cell research to Dr. Mengele's activities, this is simply and utterly WRONG. Stem cells are derived from a blastula containing approximately 100 undifferentiated cells. They have no nerves, no brain, no heart, a literal "ball of cells". It's impossible for such an embryo to even feel pain and you want to equate it with the literal psychological, and physical SUFFERING that Mengele caused? Whether you believe such an embryo should be equated to human life or not, it's a ridiculous comparison that does a disservice to the real children who endured the experiments.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryonic_stem_cell

    Abortion is evil because you'll essentially NEVER catch an embryo before the stage at which it it has nerves or a heartbeat and at that point and much less deniable as a true individual and can probably feel pain.

  7. #37
    King of the jungle Lion's Avatar
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    NW said;
    We are warned quite explicitly by Paul not to make our own opinions into rules with which to judge our fellow believers. (Romans 14:1-3 and Romans 14:4) So, as we venture into this subject we must be careful that we limit ourselves to only those things which are found in Scripture through careful exegesis, and not force our own opinions, however well intentioned, onto the Scriptures.
    Your mistake here is that you don’t understand these two scriptures, both are strictly in reference to the differences between the Circumcision Believers and the Members of The Body of Christ during the transition period. Neither have any place in this political debate and have no place in a discussion over issues of right and wrong.

    NW said;
    After careful thought and consideration we have come to the opinion that the only instance in which voting could be definitively considered an immoral act is if a vote is cast for someone who God himself would not command us to obey as a legitimate authority. God himself is fairly broad in this regard. He commands us to view as legitimate, and often chooses to work through and commands us to obey, magistrates who are imperfect individuals, and who do not follow his commands at every point. Where he give us not only the right, but the imperative to rebel against a magistrate is where that magistrate would force us to engage in actions in violation of God's commands. Notice it is not enough that a magistrate merely allows things to go on which are contrary to God's will, he must actively be forcing others to commit such actions before rebellion is sanctioned or required. Therefore, to knowingly vote for someone who would attempt to force citizens to engage in immoral acts, would be immoral.
    This isn’t true at all. John the Baptist rebelled against King Herod because of his personal immorality. Herod wasn’t ordering John to be sexually immoral.

    NW said
    After careful consideration, we can see no evidence based on character, stated beliefs, or past actions to believe than either John McCain or Sarah Palin would enact any law or take any governmental action which would force Christians to commit acts contrary to God's law. This then places the action of voting for McCain and Palin into the category discussed by Paul previously in which each Christian is accountable to his own conscience for his actions. With this in view, there exists no scriptural warrant for judging another believer's voting to be an immoral act.
    Once again you are taking an unbiblical stance. God doesn’t say that we should only stand against a person if he or she personally was going to force someone else to commit an immoral act, but rather also those who even just approve of such things.
    Romans 1:32
    who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
    I think you have already lost the argument here. You admit abortion is murder every time (except when trying to save both mother and child but technology prevents saving the child at that time).

    And you admit that John McCain allows for abortion in the case of incest and rape. So how can you say it would be moral to vote for a man that would place his stamp of approval on the murder of innocent children?

    I would conclude that if you do you fall under the condemnation of Romans 1:32
    In service of the
    Lion and the Lamb

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  9. #38
    King of the jungle Lion's Avatar
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    Alate one said;
    If you say so . . . You also compare stem cell research to Dr. Mengele's activities, this is simply and utterly WRONG. Stem cells are derived from a blastula containing approximately 100 undifferentiated cells. They have no nerves, no brain, no heart, a literal "ball of cells". It's impossible for such an embryo to even feel pain and you want to equate it with the literal psychological, and physical SUFFERING that Mengele caused? Whether you believe such an embryo should be equated to human life or not, it's a ridiculous comparison that does a disservice to the real children who endured the experiments.
    Hmm. Of course no one knows what our soul/spirit feels or thinks during this time.
    In service of the
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  11. #39
    Over 500 post club nicholsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion View Post
    You admit abortion is murder every time (except when trying to save both mother and child but technology prevents saving the child at that time).
    We made no such exception. We stated only that abortion is murder. Why do you attribute this exception to us?
    And you admit that John McCain allows for abortion in the case of incest and rape.
    Where, oh where did you read this??? This "admission" is not anywhere in our post, nor in our profiles. Please refrain from putting words into our mouths.
    I would conclude that if you do you fall under the condemnation of Romans 1:32
    This is no surprise considering how you have "read between the lines" of our post to twist it to your purpose. Is this also how you read your Bible? With subjectivism upon its throne in your heart?
    Futility: "More than at any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and hopelessness; the other, to total extinction. Let us pray that we will have the wisdom to choose correctly. I speak, by the way, not with any sense of futility, but with a panicky conviction of the absolute meaninglessness of existence."
    - Woody Allen

    Hope:
    Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
    Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthyŚmeditate on these things.
    Philippians 4:6-8

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    Over 2000 post club Alate_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion View Post
    Alate one said;

    Hmm. Of course no one knows what our soul/spirit feels or thinks during this time.
    Except as an adult, have you ever felt pain from someone damaging part of you that had no pain receptors? (cutting hair etc.) Brain's can be cut with the patient still alive and awake and they feel no pain, yet the brain is probably the "seat" of the soul. But of course the brain has no pain receptors so no pain is felt.

    Soul and body are integrated so tightly as to be almost inseparable, the brain serving as the centerpiece of the interaction. No brain = no "attachment point" for the soul.

    You're arguing against a technology that has the potential to heal millions of people, on the supposition that maybe a soul is attached to a ball of 50-100 cells and it can feel pain when damaged, despite the lack of nerve endings. I'm not suggesting we throw around human embryo's willy nilly as if they were meaningless but if the well regulated research is allowed to go forward, *eventually* we will CEASE TO REQUIRE embryos at all.

    This is hardly the random and useless nature of the Mengele experiments (aside from the obvious cruelty involved). The comparison is ridiculous, PERIOD.

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    Whether it is 100 cells or one cell: it is a human being, if it is an embryo. Stem cell research using embryos is the same thing as what Mengele did: torture.
    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." -- Amos 3:7

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    Of course people can vote for anyone they want but if we know the truth about the candidates then we must take that into consideration. John McCain wants to be president so he is trying to say the right things now to decieve gullible voters. Don't be a gullible pro-lifer and vote for McCain!

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    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    I am strongly in favor of the Godsfreewill team, but, nevertheless, Round 1 goes to WandererInFog and nicholsmom.

    Looking forward to the rest of the debate!!

  16. #44
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    The opening round finished strong in support of the position that it is NOT immoral to vote for McCain/Palin.

    The post first laid the groundwork for the question, clarified the reasoning behind the position, and contained a clear statement of the position held:

    The post also clarified what was not being debated:


    The post had two questions:

    The answer is yes, of course, but a better question is whether God has ever put His people under a leader who was completely immoral.
    The list can include the Pharoh at the time of the Exodus and Nebuchadnezzar.
    The list can also include Caligula and Nero, several Popes, Hitler, Stalin, and more.
    The only leader who will be perfectly moral is Jesus when He returns.


    Nebuchadnezzar was an immoral leader, but the children of Israel were told to settle in Babylon and live under his rule.
    Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, (aka Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego) rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar by refusing to fall down and worship the golden image, but they did not rebel when they were thrown into the fiery furnace.
    Instead they accepted the consequences of their actions and Nebuchadnezzar's authority in setting their punishment for their rebellion.


    At this point of the Battle Royale, NW is clearly ahead, and GG is still trying to figure out what they are trying to say.
    Your argument only works if God actually put his people under those leaders.

    In some cases you may be able to adequately argue that He did. But not in all. In fact, not in most. The German people put themselves under Hitler by voting for him. The ones who voted for him did anyway. And the Israelites were put under Pharaoh by Pharaoh himself. Not by God. And on and on. And you failed to provide scriptural support for your claim about Nebuchadnezzar.


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    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Your argument only works if God actually put his people under those leaders.

    In some cases you may be able to adequately argue that He did. But not in all. In fact, not in most. The German people put themselves under Hitler by voting for him. The ones who voted for him did anyway. And the Israelites were put under Pharaoh by Pharaoh himself. Not by God. And on and on. And you failed to provide scriptural support for your claim about Nebuchadnezzar.

    Daniel 2
    1And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
    . . .
    20Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
    21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
    . . .
    37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.



    Jeremiah 29
    1Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;
    2(After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem
    3By the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan, and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, (whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent unto Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon) saying,
    4Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
    5Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;
    6Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
    7And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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