ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)

Lon

Lon

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
I see you're blind, maybe one day you'll see. :chuckle:
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Interesting take, I guess. Look, if you have another belief that you've spent years on, I think I can expect that it would have explainable tenants.

If it is a 'vague' idea in your head, it isn't as structured as what I believe. So, yeah, there is a bit of frustration on this side. Pelagianism , I've seen. Sinless birth doctrine, I've seen. What you believe? :idunno: Only you or Jerry could make that clear. Me blind? Yep, until you or he explain it well, you bet. One day? Perhaps if you explain it well. Otherwise, isn't it just a forgettable doctrine that was never really explained well?

glorydaz said:
Well MAD doesn't serve very well, because, from what I see, there are factions there, too. Danoh is always waring over Acts 19 or Acts something else. Some say I'm MAD, but if I am, I'm not sure why I am. I do agree with most of what I hear from them. Maybe even all of it. I haven't measured that out or formed some particular "doctrine". Same with Calvinists....some are hyper, some say one thing and others say something else. Even the doctrine of "original sin" means different things to different people.
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Yet, they show, in a structured and well explained manner, what one believes for the most part. After that "I am not particularly MAD on this...." etc. You know, to some accurate degree, what I mean by saying I'm Calvinist. It might not mean what another means, yet I think most on here can fairly accurately describe what I believe.
glorydaz said:
Saying people sin IN ADAM is based upon a scripture that has nothing to do with sin. I've followed through by searching out many of these proof texts, and I'd be embarrassed to even put them forth as proof of anything. They don't stand when read in context.
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That's your embarrassment, not mine. I at least can understand MAD. I don't agree, but definitely don't go the 'embarrassment' route. We simply disagree from what we are seeing. If it was that clear, 1) you'd be able to explain it in a way that even your fellow MAD would understand. To date, I don't seem that happening yet. 2) It'd be a life-changer. I rather think sinless-birth doctrine doesn't fully understand what a new creation is, in Christ. We are identified "in Adam" under sin and death. We are identified 'in Christ" with His death burial and resurrection.



glorydaz said:
The same thing it always means....not guilty.
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Guilt and death are two different things. One is a 'legal' concern. I am not just 'death-row' sentenced, but under the need of a Savior, whether I sin or not. He is the Only One who can fix us, give us life.





glorydaz said:
That's not the Gospel of Salvation.
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It was child-like faith. I know the Lord Jesus Christ heard my prayer that day. The gospel is simply: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved." Romans 10:9,10

The gospel is Jesus saving us, not us 'doing something.' Lord Jesus save me, is the gospel. The good news is "Jesus Saves."

I know the MAD paradigm. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Lon said:
Interesting take, I guess. Look, if you have another belief that you've spent years on, I think I can expect that it would have explainable tenants.
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I would think the same about your tenants, but they don't ring true much less make a bit of sense.

Right, God saddled us with a dead spirit, unable to seek God, tells us we have no excuse for not doing so, commands us to turn to Him and believe (while knowing we are unable)....then chooses certain ones to save and leaves the rest damned. And you scoff at me for believing God would never do any of that? :dead:

If it is a 'vague' idea in your head, it isn't as structured as what I believe.
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I'm coming to the conclusion it's just too simple for you. You've built yourself a tower hoping to reach up to God, and it's built on nothing but sand. It's a horrible lie you're preaching. It makes God out to be a tyrant without an ounce of mercy or grace. You take verses and twist them to your doctrine (which you've swallowed hook line and sinker), insisting others fall for it.


It might not mean what another means, yet I think most on here can fairly accurately describe what I believe.
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Yes, and I've overlooked your ignorance knowing your background in the Calvinist doctrine.

That's your embarrassment, not mine.
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Nice try, but pretty ridiculous since you're the one putting forth those cherry picked verses that contradict the context they come in.

What this has made clear to me is this idea of original sin is just a drop in the bucket of our differences. I will never buy Tulip and you will never give it up. No fellowship is possible between us.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Lon said:
Guilt and death are two different things. One is a 'legal' concern. I am not just 'death-row' sentenced, but under the need of a Savior, whether I sin or not. He is the Only One who can fix us, give us life.
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Lord have mercy. I said innocent means not guilty. Now if that is too confusing for you, just say so.
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Jerry Shugart said:
In regard to that subject let us look at what Paul said in regard to his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth:

"renewing of the Holy Spirit."​

If a person is "renewed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. And that happens when a person is conceived. So no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.
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(1 Co. 1:19)​

Nang said:
This is just plain stupid stuff . . .:kookoo:
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(1 Co. 2:14)​
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Good ole Meat Loaf. We both attended Texas Tech University at the same time:

"In high school he suffered eleven concussions as a tackle on the football team, and when he was in eight-grade his skull was cracked by a shot-put that landed on his head with such force that the sound was heard at a baseball game a half-mile away. And six weeks after that, Meat Loaf got hit in the back with a discus. Then there was the time he was driving throughout the campus at Texas Tech and became distracted by an amazing well-endowed young lady on the sidewalk, ramming into the car in front of him, and ending up with the head stuck in the steering wheel"​
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Banned
Jerry Shugart said:
Good ole Meat Loaf. We both attended Texas Tech University at the same time:

"In high school he suffered eleven concussions as a tackle on the football team, and when he was in eight-grade his skull was cracked by a shot-put that landed on his head with such force that the sound was heard at a baseball game a half-mile away. And six weeks after that, Meat Loaf got hit in the back with a discus. Then there was the time he was driving throughout the campus at Texas Tech and became distracted by an amazing well-endowed young lady on the sidewalk, ramming into the car in front of him, and ending up with the head stuck in the steering wheel"​
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I confess... I still listen to every song from "Bat out of Hell", to this very day.

:D
 
Eagles Wings

Eagles Wings

New member
Nang said:
I believe so . .



No. There was nothing mystical or magical about the tree at all.

Adam had high intelligence prior to the fall, for he was given the responsibility to take care of all the garden and the animal kingdom. So he had knowledge. However, he revealed he was not satisfied with God's providence, but desired all that God knew and possessed. He was warned that breaking the command, and choosing to eat of the tree would cause death, but he simply did not believe it . . and because of his unbelief, he learned of death and such forbidden knowledge corrupted his being. Ecclesiastes 1:18



Yes. I remember when my daughter was a toddler, I gave her specific instructions not to touch plug outlets, which only attracted her to them, and she immediately crawled to one and stuck her finger to it. She was not hurt, but that seems to be a common condition. Forbidden things attract us.



I believe it was a divine demonstration of the limits of the creature. After all, the Godhead covenanted to provide redemption through God the Son, who would be slain, before creation. A creature cannot be like God. Adam was created, and thus was fallible. There can be no such thing as a created and infallible ousia.



Only Adam, as a man, was created in the image of God, and possessed the intelligence to comprehend the moral commands of God. Brute beasts cannot reason, so they do not sin.

And angels were created only to serve God; they cannot function autonomously from God; hence a third of them were not permitted to remain in heaven because of leaving their first estate (purpose).



Scripture is silent regarding the life of the entire garden, and all we know is we will never see it or the Tree of Life until the new heavens and new earth appear. However, I believe, because of the warning in Ecclesiastes 1:18, unbelievers, non-Christians, and skeptics still figuratively partake of it in their vain attempt to know MORE than God, and their rebellious desire to elevate their knowledge above God's Word.

Such still to this day, demonstrates the limits of the creature, for not a single soul has ever achieved immortality, infallibility, or righteousness through knowledge alone.

Only God's power and grace can provide creaturely access to His spiritual and heavenly heights.
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Excellent post, Nang.

One for the "files". :thumb:
 
Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Eagles Wings said:
Excellent post, Nang.

One for the "files". :thumb:
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One for the "files" of the :trash bin:

Allow me to ask some questions... And supply the answers, in a good old "Evil.<(I)> way.

Q: Do you believe God "Predestined" Every event with His "Foreknowledge"?
A: Yes

Q: Did you just suggest that God "Created Man with a PROPENSITY to SIN", as NANG did in their POST?
A: Yes

Q: Does that make God a "Tempter"
A: Yes it does

Q: Is this utter rubbish
A: Yes it is

Q: Is there a ToL emoji to express my current condition after seeing this teachings of men affirming affirmation that mars God's Goodness?
A: :vomit:
 
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