Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Hi EE,
I think you are thinking too fast for me here. Can you express, clearly, what you think those things mean rather than just point me to them. I appreciate that it is "perspective", as that's what we are all dealing with as we look through a glass dimly.

And I'm not trying to waste your time, as some of the things you have written have triggered similar thoughts in my mind, assuming I'm understanding what you are trying to say. But I don't want to continue based merely on my assumption.

I'll comment specifically below.

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

Hi Derf,

It seems off track and I understand your concerns. Hmmmmmmm..... You are on the money about the trampling and thus we are actually on track. Have you ever wondered how those "who pierced Him" will "see Him" at His second coming?

Revelation flows into this matter and makes it clear that "Every Eye" shall see Him. Revelation reveals "how" this will happen. "Sheol" will be "emptied out". This is enormous and brings further scope to the matter.

When Christ comes... Israel will be under attack on a mass scale. We know this because of Christ's words in the book of Luke. (Luke 21:20) ... This is where we begin to see events that will lead to this... (1 Thes. 4:17) ... though we know that the days will be "shortened" or else no flesh will be "spared".

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I think you are suggesting here that the emptying out of Sheol makes possible every eye seeing Him. But I don't see how that then flows into any flesh being spared, since Sheol's emptying (a resurrection of some type) seems to negate the need to spare flesh (from a death of some type).

The big aha scriptures for me that give a deep insight into what I am "perceiving" are found when comparing these two passages...

Revelation 9:1-12 and Joel 2 ... The common error in western eschatology is to assume that the Revelation 9 locusts are "wicked"... but they are far from it. Note the use of the word... "Destroyer" or Abbadon... and note who has the key... to death... (Rev. 20:1)

Click to expand...

You might have a hard time convincing me that anything coming out of the locked abyss is good, considering Luke 8:31. And just because the key to the abyss was given to one at a particular time (in Rev 9) doesn't mean the same one has it later (in Rev 20).

The devil has been destroying since Eden, but now the tables are turned. The reference to "The king" of the army is odd... but... and I'll even throw this in for kicks... (The king of the angel army that is holding the "key"... could be none other then "David".) We know that the "Davidic" covenant still has points that can only be fully fulfilled by "The Day of The Lord".

Click to expand...

I see where you are heading with this, but it suggests that the star that is "fallen" from heaven (Rev 9:1) is Christ, despite His description of Satan in similar terms (in Luke 10:18). I think "fallen from heaven" is quite a bit different than "has come down from heaven".

Plus, Isaiah gives a fuller picture that incorporates the fall from heaven, the description as a star, and the ending in the abyss:

[Isa 14:12, 15] 12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! ... 15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

Even the "you who have weakened the nations" fits with the ability to hurt but not kill in Rev 9.

This is my last point... I will express that I'm going a little deeper then I am usually comfortable going... but I have searched from Gen. to Rev. on this matter multiple times and the same outcome is there.

I'll pitch in this last verse... (Mt. 10:28)

I acknowledge that this is mere perspective, but the Lord of the Hosts is allowed to appoint "Generals" and such... so... I'm certain that you will at least be able to perceive my logic.

I believe in the supreme grace of Jesus, but He isn't coming back a Lamb, and I believe that many "Souls" will perish before the "Great White Throne", which is actually a reference to this... (Zech. 14:2)

I'll put it this way... God doesn't have a simple "Throne"... He has an entire "Nation" as His "Great White Throne". I'm specifying Israel.

In other words... people miss the rhythm and rhyme of the Old and New Testament and forget what the Jews were promised that hasn't happened yet.

I acknowledge that this is a mere "perspective", but if you're still interested... I will gladly go back on this scriptural journey with you all through scripture.

It always ends the same way and Hinnom Valley is very important to this point as it is the actual origin of the word we have now come to "embrace" as "Hell". Jesus certainly knew this as He and His audience understood Jewish Prophecy... ahem... some of His audience understood it. Others clearly missed the "first" "boat".

- EE

(Malachi 4:1f) ... This is why I take biblical Zionism so seriously.

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I certainly applaud your attempts to make sense of a hard subject. And I like what you are saying about the Great White Throne judgment. I don't necessarily agree, but I wonder if we've relegated too much of Revelation into what happens to crowds of souls after death rather than physical and living humans.

I'm still missing your "boat" a bit on that last part.

Derf said:

Hi EE,
I think you are thinking too fast for me here. Can you express, clearly, what you think those things mean rather than just point me to them. I appreciate that it is "perspective", as that's what we are all dealing with as we look through a glass dimly.

And I'm not trying to waste your time, as some of the things you have written have triggered similar thoughts in my mind, assuming I'm understanding what you are trying to say. But I don't want to continue based merely on my assumption.

I'll comment specifically below.
I think you are suggesting here that the emptying out of Sheol makes possible every eye seeing Him. But I don't see how that then flows into any flesh being spared, since Sheol's emptying (a resurrection of some type) seems to negate the need to spare flesh (from a death of some type).You might have a hard time convincing me that anything coming out of the locked abyss is good, considering Luke 8:31. And just because the key to the abyss was given to one at a particular time (in Rev 9) doesn't mean the same one has it later (in Rev 20).I see where you are heading with this, but it suggests that the star that is "fallen" from heaven (Rev 9:1) is Christ, despite His description of Satan in similar terms (in Luke 10:18). I think "fallen from heaven" is quite a bit different than "has come down from heaven".

Plus, Isaiah gives a fuller picture that incorporates the fall from heaven, the description as a star, and the ending in the abyss:

[Isa 14:12, 15] 12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! ... 15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

Even the "you who have weakened the nations" fits with the ability to hurt but not kill in Rev 9.


I certainly applaud your attempts to make sense of a hard subject. And I like what you are saying about the Great White Throne judgment. I don't necessarily agree, but I wonder if we've relegated too much of Revelation into what happens to crowds of souls after death rather than physical and living humans.

I'm still missing your "boat" a bit on that last part.

Click to expand...

1 verse to bring you right back to the point... Remember... Scripture contains two STARS and only ONE is the Real STAR of the Matter (John 5:39)...

(Rev. 22:16) <--- Check the link Derf... It's right there... Come on... You can see it.

And now for the big one... chase all of it with a good reading of Psalm 18.... Note that the CLOUDS are DARK....

Psalm 18

I will love You, O Lord, my strength.
2 The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
My God, my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised;
So shall I be saved from my enemies.
4 The pangs of death surrounded me,
And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried out to my God;
He heard my voice from His temple,
And my cry came before Him, even to His ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.[a]
14 He sent out His arrows and scattered the foe,
Lightnings in abundance, and He vanquished them.
15 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered
At Your rebuke, O Lord,
At the blast of the breath of Your nostrils.
16 He sent from above, He took me;
He drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy,
From those who hated me,
For they were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the Lord was my support.
19 He also brought me out into a broad place;
He delivered me because He delighted in me.
20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all His judgments were before me,
And I did not put away His statutes from me.
23 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.
25 With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
27 For You will save the humble people,
But will bring down haughty looks.
28 For You will light my lamp;
The Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.
29 For by You I can run against a troop,
By my God I can leap over a wall.
30 As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the Lord is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him.
31 For who is God, except the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?
32 It is God who arms me with strength,
And makes my way perfect.
33 He makes my feet like the feet of deer,
And sets me on my high places.
34 He teaches my hands to make war,
So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
35 You have also given me the shield of Your salvation;
Your right hand has held me up,
Your gentleness has made me great.
36 You enlarged my path under me,
So my feet did not slip.
37 I have pursued my enemies and overtaken them;
Neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed.
38 I have wounded them,
So that they could not rise;
They have fallen under my feet.
39 For You have armed me with strength for the battle;
You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.
40 You have also given me the necks of my enemies,
So that I destroyed those who hated me.
41 They cried out, but there was none to save;
Even to the Lord, but He did not answer them.
42 Then I beat them as fine as the dust before the wind;
I cast them out like dirt in the streets.
43 You have delivered me from the strivings of the people;
You have made me the head of the nations;
A people I have not known shall serve me.
44 As soon as they hear of me they obey me;
The foreigners submit to me.
45 The foreigners fade away,
And come frightened from their hideouts.
46 The Lord lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
47 It is God who avenges me,
And subdues the peoples under me;
48 He delivers me from my enemies.
You also lift me up above those who rise against me;
You have delivered me from the violent man.
49 Therefore I will give thanks to You, O Lord, among the Gentiles,
And sing praises to Your name.
50 Great deliverance He gives to His king,
And shows mercy to His anointed,
To David and his descendants forevermore.

Who's in those CLOUDS Derf? Hint... (Acts 1:9; Daniel 7:13) and... wait for it...


Come on Derf... I know you can "See" it. Don't give up on me yet.

This is the big one... An Arch Angel is Announcing the KINGS RETURN in Psalms! Come on Derf... Joel 2 and Revelation... Bind them together... Test them... search them...

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

1 verse to bring you right back to the point... Remember... Scripture contains two STARS and only ONE is the Real STAR of the Matter (John 5:39)...

(Rev. 22:16) <--- Check the link Derf... It's right there... Come on... You can see it.

And now for the big one... chase all of it with a good reading of Psalm 18.... Note that the CLOUDS are DARK....

Click to expand...

That's because puffy white cotton-candy clouds don't really convey much sense of judgment.

Spoiler

Psalm 18

I will love You, O Lord, my strength.
2 The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
My God, my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised;
So shall I be saved from my enemies.
4 The pangs of death surrounded me,
And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord,
And cried out to my God;
He heard my voice from His temple,
And my cry came before Him, even to His ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire.[a]
14 He sent out His arrows and scattered the foe,
Lightnings in abundance, and He vanquished them.
15 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered
At Your rebuke, O Lord,
At the blast of the breath of Your nostrils.
16 He sent from above, He took me;
He drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy,
From those who hated me,
For they were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the Lord was my support.
19 He also brought me out into a broad place;
He delivered me because He delighted in me.
20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all His judgments were before me,
And I did not put away His statutes from me.
23 I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
24 Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.
25 With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
27 For You will save the humble people,
But will bring down haughty looks.
28 For You will light my lamp;
The Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.
29 For by You I can run against a troop,
By my God I can leap over a wall.
30 As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the Lord is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him.
31 For who is God, except the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?
32 It is God who arms me with strength,
And makes my way perfect.
33 He makes my feet like the feet of deer,
And sets me on my high places.
34 He teaches my hands to make war,
So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
35 You have also given me the shield of Your salvation;
Your right hand has held me up,
Your gentleness has made me great.
36 You enlarged my path under me,
So my feet did not slip.
37 I have pursued my enemies and overtaken them;
Neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed.
38 I have wounded them,
So that they could not rise;
They have fallen under my feet.
39 For You have armed me with strength for the battle;
You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.
40 You have also given me the necks of my enemies,
So that I destroyed those who hated me.
41 They cried out, but there was none to save;
Even to the Lord, but He did not answer them.
42 Then I beat them as fine as the dust before the wind;
I cast them out like dirt in the streets.
43 You have delivered me from the strivings of the people;
You have made me the head of the nations;
A people I have not known shall serve me.
44 As soon as they hear of me they obey me;
The foreigners submit to me.
45 The foreigners fade away,
And come frightened from their hideouts.
46 The Lord lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
47 It is God who avenges me,
And subdues the peoples under me;
48 He delivers me from my enemies.
You also lift me up above those who rise against me;
You have delivered me from the violent man.
49 Therefore I will give thanks to You, O Lord, among the Gentiles,
And sing praises to Your name.
50 Great deliverance He gives to His king,
And shows mercy to His anointed,
To David and his descendants forevermore.

Who's in those CLOUDS Derf? Hint... (Acts 1:9; Daniel 7:13) and... wait for it...

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

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I'm still having a hard time associating Jesus with a star "fallen" from heaven. So since you admit of two stars, how does one distinguish which is which? The word "fallen" seems to be pretty important. Plus, just as "star" can refer to two polar opposite persons, as you pointed out, cannot clouds also point to two different things?

Come on Derf... I know you can "See" it. Don't give up on me yet.

This is the big one... An Arch Angel is Announcing the KINGS RETURN in Psalms! Come on Derf... Joel 2 and Revelation... Bind them together... Test them... search them...

Click to expand...

Joel 2 seems to be talking about real locusts. Are you saying it isn't? And Revelation 9 isn't either, I gather. You believe they are both talking about real things (people?), but not locusts. The same real things that destroy the grass in Joel 1:18-19, but not in Rev 9:4. And you think Joel and Revelation are speaking of the same event?

Call me dense, but I'm not seeing it.

But still, let's grant you your perspective on these things for now. How does that relate to the OP? Remember how dense I am when you explain it.

Derf said:

That's because puffy white cotton-candy clouds don't really convey much sense of judgment.I'm still having a hard time associating Jesus with a star "fallen" from heaven. So since you admit of two stars, how does one distinguish which is which? The word "fallen" seems to be pretty important. Plus, just as "star" can refer to two polar opposite persons, as you pointed out, cannot clouds also point to two different things?Joel 2 seems to be talking about real locusts. Are you saying it isn't? And Revelation 9 isn't either, I gather. You believe they are both talking about real things (people?), but not locusts. The same real things that destroy the grass in Joel 1:18-19, but not in Rev 9:4. And you think Joel and Revelation are speaking of the same event?

Call me dense, but I'm not seeing it.

But still, let's grant you your perspective on these things for now. How does that relate to the OP? Remember how dense I am when you explain it.

Click to expand...

Would these words from Joel 1 help?

Alas for the day!
For the day of the Lord is at hand;
It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.<-- Who's Destroying?
16 Is not the food cut off before our eyes,
Joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed shrivels under the clods,
Storehouses are in shambles;
Barns are broken down,
For the grain has withered.
18 How the animals groan!
The herds of cattle are restless,
Because they have no pasture;
Even the flocks of sheep suffer punishment.
19 O Lord, to You I cry out;
For fire has devoured the open pastures,
And a flame has burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field also cry out to You,
For the water brooks are dried up,
And fire has devoured the open pastures.

And again...

Zechariah 14

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Locusts represent Destruction Derf and Hell fire ain't a "Pit".



God, the Angels and the Saints are the "Hellfire"... and all the lands that oppose Israel will be set up for the true battle known as Armegeddon.. which is Megiddo ... and derives from Hinnom.

This is where the word "Hell" is derived from in scripture.



Test me, try me... search it.

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ... How about if I throw in this...

Joel 3

God Judges the Nations

3 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3 They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.
4 “Indeed, what have you to do with Me,
O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia?
Will you retaliate against Me?
But if you retaliate against Me,
Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head;

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

Would these words from Joel 1 help?

Alas for the day!
For the day of the Lord is at hand;
It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.<-- Who's Destroying?
16 Is not the food cut off before our eyes,
Joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed shrivels under the clods,
Storehouses are in shambles;
Barns are broken down,
For the grain has withered.
18 How the animals groan!
The herds of cattle are restless,
Because they have no pasture;
Even the flocks of sheep suffer punishment.
19 O Lord, to You I cry out;
For fire has devoured the open pastures,
And a flame has burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field also cry out to You,
For the water brooks are dried up,
And fire has devoured the open pastures.

And again...

Zechariah 14

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Locusts represent Destruction Derf and Hell fire ain't a "Pit".



God, the Angels and the Saints are the "Hellfire"... and all the lands that oppose Israel will be set up for the true battle known as Armegeddon.. which is Megiddo ... and derives from Hinnom.

This is where the word "Hell" is derived from in scripture.



Test me, try me... search it.

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ... How about if I throw in this...

Joel 3

God Judges the Nations

3 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3 They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.
4 “Indeed, what have you to do with Me,
O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia?
Will you retaliate against Me?
But if you retaliate against Me,
Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head;

Click to expand...

Let me think through it a bit. Don't know if I'll be able to reply today.

Hi EE. Thanks for your patience. I've trimmed your post down to just this little section, as it is the meat of your interpretation.

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

God, the Angels and the Saints are the "Hellfire"... and all the lands that oppose Israel will be set up for the true battle known as Armegeddon.. which is Megiddo ... and derives from Hinnom.

This is where the word "Hell" is derived from in scripture.



Test me, try me... search it.

Click to expand...

As you wish.

Let's start with the conflation of Armageddon and Hinnom. I have never seen that those two are derived from the same place. The consonants aren't even close. This is not my specialty, so I looked it up, and I don't see it anywhere else, either.

Here's the description of Megiddo when the Israelites divided up Canaan: [Jos 17:10-11 KJV] 10 Southward [it was] Ephraim's, and northward [it was] Manasseh's, and the sea is his border; and they met together in Asher on the north, and in Issachar on the east. 11 And Manasseh had in Issachar and in Asher Bethshean and her towns, and Ibleam and her towns, and the inhabitants of Dor and her towns, and the inhabitants of Endor and her towns, and the inhabitants of Taanach and her towns, and the inhabitants of Megiddo and her towns, [even] three countries.

Manasseh was north of Ephraim, and Ephraim was one of the 10 northern tribes that became Samaria. It was a fair bit north of Jerusalem.

Hinnom was south of Jerusalem: [Jos 15:8 KJV] 8 And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same [is] Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that [lieth] before the valley of Hinnom westward, which [is] at the end of the valley of the giants northward

These are not the same place.

I don't have a problem with the locusts being representative of a swarm of people, but Joel 1 seems to be describing...locusts. And I already mentioned that it seems strange for the people of God to come out of the abyss/bottomless pit--the same one, I suppose, that is the habitation of Satan, at least for 1000 years.

But the Armageddon reference (Rev 9) came BEFORE Satan was cast into that abyss (Rev 20:2), and then Satan was released from the abyss (Rev 20:7), after which he is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). These are chronologically in order.

[Rev 20:9-10 KJV] 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice that Satan's army compassed the camp of the saints on the earth (apparently Jerusalem), but the fire came down out of heaven (angels, maybe, but the saints were already come down out of heaven in vs 4). But beyond the fire coming down from heaven, the devil is then cast into a lake of fire. If the lake of fire is the valley of Hinnom (not immediately apparent from these verses), and that lake was where the beast and false prophet were cast before the 1000 years, and that area was south of Jerusalem, then why do more angels need to come out of heaven prior to the devil being cast into the lake of fire. Seems like the locations and the transitions between them don't allow for your interpretation.

But now that we've gotten to the verse about everlasting torment. Does that verse not really mean "tormented"? Or does it not mean "day and night"? Or does it not mean "forever and ever"?

Let's just allow for your interpretation that believers and angels are the "hellfire". Are you really willing to say that they (we) actively torment satan, and the beast, and the false prophet, not to mention everybody that has already been resurrected but not found in the Lamb's book of life, day and night forever and ever? That's not quite the picture of everlasting life I was looking forward to.

Derf said:

Hi EE. Thanks for your patience. I've trimmed your post down to just this little section, as it is the meat of your interpretation.
As you wish.

Let's start with the conflation of Armageddon and Hinnom. I have never seen that those two are derived from the same place. The consonants aren't even close. This is not my specialty, so I looked it up, and I don't see it anywhere else, either.

Here's the description of Megiddo when the Israelites divided up Canaan: [Jos 17:10-11 KJV] 10 Southward [it was] Ephraim's, and northward [it was] Manasseh's, and the sea is his border; and they met together in Asher on the north, and in Issachar on the east. 11 And Manasseh had in Issachar and in Asher Bethshean and her towns, and Ibleam and her towns, and the inhabitants of Dor and her towns, and the inhabitants of Endor and her towns, and the inhabitants of Taanach and her towns, and the inhabitants of Megiddo and her towns, [even] three countries.

Manasseh was north of Ephraim, and Ephraim was one of the 10 northern tribes that became Samaria. It was a fair bit north of Jerusalem.

Hinnom was south of Jerusalem: [Jos 15:8 KJV] 8 And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same [is] Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that [lieth] before the valley of Hinnom westward, which [is] at the end of the valley of the giants northward

These are not the same place.

I don't have a problem with the locusts being representative of a swarm of people, but Joel 1 seems to be describing...locusts. And I already mentioned that it seems strange for the people of God to come out of the abyss/bottomless pit--the same one, I suppose, that is the habitation of Satan, at least for 1000 years.

But the Armageddon reference (Rev 9) came BEFORE Satan was cast into that abyss (Rev 20:2), and then Satan was released from the abyss (Rev 20:7), after which he is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). These are chronologically in order.

[Rev 20:9-10 KJV] 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice that Satan's army compassed the camp of the saints on the earth (apparently Jerusalem), but the fire came down out of heaven (angels, maybe, but the saints were already come down out of heaven in vs 4). But beyond the fire coming down from heaven, the devil is then cast into a lake of fire. If the lake of fire is the valley of Hinnom (not immediately apparent from these verses), and that lake was where the beast and false prophet were cast before the 1000 years, and that area was south of Jerusalem, then why do more angels need to come out of heaven prior to the devil being cast into the lake of fire. Seems like the locations and the transitions between them don't allow for your interpretation.

But now that we've gotten to the verse about everlasting torment. Does that verse not really mean "tormented"? Or does it not mean "day and night"? Or does it not mean "forever and ever"?

Let's just allow for your interpretation that believers and angels are the "hellfire". Are you really willing to say that they (we) actively torment satan, and the beast, and the false prophet, not to mention everybody that has already been resurrected but not found in the Lamb's book of life, day and night forever and ever? That's not quite the picture of everlasting life I was looking forward to.

Click to expand...

Hi Derf,

You are now wading in correctly and I acknowledge that I am a mere human being sharing perspective.

There are keys to understanding Revelation, as you well know. I will drop them and move forward with a bit of answering.

The Keys...

Revelation is "not" sequential... outside of direct speech. It loops. The events parralell one another and act as book ends to Old Testament Prophecy. Remember... Genesis did this for the creation account. We see expansive narrative that speaks of the Creation account and then it loops to Man and Woman in the Garden on the 6th Day. ... this is a Prophetic Key.

Marriage as indicated by the Bride and Groom of Eden. ... this story is the true scope that teaches us how to typify Christ throughout all scripture.

Heb. 4:8 assists in this matter as well. The very key is in the matter of the "Sabbath"
... I never claim to know anything that I can't prove, so the "age of the universe" is a matter that I don't step towards.. but... I can tell you that the Hebrew years are only 360 days and we are currently on year 5777 ... what I'm about to do has nothing to do with actual Prophetic prediction... so damn the person that tries to take this and attempt to calculate a false time like an idiot that Christ will return... (as you and I know that only God knows this matter) but... we are deep into it... so... here it goes...

- The Hebrews pass on that the year 0000 is roughly around the 1st day of creation.

- Why is this important? Because a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day. 7 days of creation and 7 specific millenniums to the Bible.

Now... think about this verse... (Rev. 2:1) That is the biblical Menorah.

It looked like this...

... in the tabrinacle. It now has 9 fixtures, but the biblical one is the point of interest.

There are 7 main periods in scripture.

- 1) 0000 - 1000 Creation and Fall
- 2) 1000 - 2000 The Flood and rebirth
- 3) 2000 - 3000 Abraham to Israel

And check this out! ... Jesus is the central Pillar of time! 4) 3000 - 4000

- 5) 4000 - 5000 Israels utter sorrow
- 6) 5000 - 6000 Israels rebirth
- 7) SABBATH REST Eternal!

This is the way Revelation flows. It is based on the Tabrinacle of Moses and Jewish festivals.

Us Goy... Goy it all up and forget the centerpiece of God's civilization... Israel. Israel is the very Clock of Prophecy and the Key to using Revelation to Order Prophetic scripture that spans multiple times and events... Scribes used to link locations to Old Testament scripture with foot notes to keep Prophecy accurate and then... petty squabbling occurred that stopped this tradition that was indeed intended by God and yet also stopped by God.

However.. Allow me to point out that the "Egyptian" and the "Assyrian" are the initial rise of Satan's empires. In them... we have a Prophetic picture of "The King of the North" and "the King of the South"

These powers presided over Israel.

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Persia
5) Greece or Macidonian empire
6) Rome
7) Ottomon Islamic Empire

Each of these have squelched the Jews for millennia.

Now... an eighth Empire that is one of the 7 is arising... The Islamic EMPIRE isn't unified yet... but it correlates with all territory that is "biblically" beast.

There is even a reference to the throne of Satan and false "Jews" that are of Satan in Revelation which corresponds to Islamic heart lands. In fact... Turkey was the seat of the Ottoman Empire. Muslims are know as Moslims and obviously for Mohammed... but they are also know as Moslims in reference to Moshe... or Moses. They are a direct parrot of the Satanic power that handed Christ over to "Death" by misunderstanding of God and His Law.

Islam is the most Anti Christ religion that has ever existed and their core Prophecy that is found in the Hadiths and in the Scholarly Islamic universities of Saudi Arabia (The Home Of Islam) parallels Christian Eschatology by 180 degrees out.

Why is this important?

Satan has been a busy beaver and he is setting up a people to literally attempt to kill the Jesus that claimed to die on the cross. I'll drop this and allow you to pick up the study or set it down. I would have to generate 100's of Thousands of character to convey all of this past citing what I have studied and is there for you to search out.

Heb. 2:14 is also noted as a key... note that Death is the final thing to get cast in the pit. Death is a title of none other than the Dragon himself...

I'll cite the exact scripture that makes this important to know, because it is imperritive to note alongside several passages...

Ezekiel 28 and surrounding scripture is well known to be duel Prophecy of a spiritual nature. It typifies Satan and shows his fate.. Let's go there first...

Ezekiel 28:10... yes it is about another, but note that the connotation is a beast power and thus returns back to it's true head and "Prince". Satan.

Ezekiel 31:18 is again a warning to Satan in spiritual form.

1st Samuel 17:36 is a lead up to David and Goliath which again is a picture of Satan being destroyed by HIS own Sword.

Ezekiel 28:18 is again a picture of Satan. This parallels the Herrodian picture we have Here... Acts 12:23

Consider Hamon and Judas Iscariott who hung on their "own" their own Gallows... so to speak in the case of Judas.

What I'm about to say is rejected by much of Christendom and only spoken by many who have no idea what they understand without understanding... but here it is...

The Spirit quenched worm is a picture of maggots destroying a corpse forever and the root of a man is God, thus if root nor branch-(his soul and body) is left of Him... this is utter soul annihilation. Mal. 4:1

I will go even further to say that the wicked are promised destruction all throughout scripture and thus... even eternal torment is a form of life... so it is off to take the prophecy that utilizes eternal verbiage that binds to eternal destruction with ALL OT teachings. If Jesus destroys a soul... that human being is Gone eternally. No soul... no existence. Consider Christ's words on this matter and His knowledge of Gehenna.

Gehenna or Hinnom was a place of eternal burning for trash and war bodies. You can search this out in history of the biblical nature. It was also a place of child sacrifice. Child Saccrifice pisses God off faster than any other act. He wiped these people out as they soiled God's very Name with such wicked offerings. Molek was the god that received the child sacrifices in Hinnom valley... but it is clear that the "god" Molek and all false god's for that matter... are none other then the deceiver.

Biblically speaking.., God spit in Satan's face by sacrificing Himself as His Child offering of appeasement. It was God's way of telling Satan that God would rather Saccrifice His self/Son then be such a vile God that would Saccrifice another's child.

This all adds up to what I am saying... and it further shows that the eternal torment verbiage has spiritual implications that are significant to God.

We know that God Loves His enemies and we know the winepress will get trod by God Himself, but the idea that God would permit eternal torture is directly contrary to His just and perfect mercy. Satan and the false prophet may very well have some form of eternal punishment, but ALL scripture points to a stoning of the SOUL by God Himself in some form or fashion that brings about the destruction of the soul.

I appreciate your patience with me and acknowledge that I am just a human being that has an opinion... but if you concordance search "The Day of The Lord" in scripture and cross reference each passage and divide the first coming from the second while recognizing duel Prophecy in the matter as well... you will come to this very conclusion.

Hinnom Vally and Jehoshaphat are very important and serve as types and possible locations.

I have attempted to give enough information for you to search this matter out, but this took me years of study and if you are led by the Spirit and curious within the will of God.. I would be interested to hear what you found.

I'm okay if you maintain another perspective and respect yours as being as valid as mine. You are passionate about Jesus and this is not essential doctrine, but... I again challenge you to dig and try me. Note that you are biblically devout and Christ centered so you have continued to search as I provide a bit more at a time.

Why don't you do what I did... Ask God to show you and promise Him that you only will know this with humility and according to His will. If I'm wrong on the matter, I have no pride. It's His plan anyway and as you... I exalt His choices and Will as far supreme to mine... Thus.. I Love Him as He does matters as He alone pleases and chooses... in the END.

Your brother in Him, respectful of your scholarly willingness to challenge and learn, while sharpening a fellow traveler... led by Him...

- Evil.Eye.<(I)>

The cheat sheets are by people that cite Eastern Eschatology vs. Western Eschatology and thus recognize the supremacy of Israel in Eschatology. There are even many conflicting views within this camp...

But.. the literal accuracy of the matter is bone chilling and faith building.

Derf said:

Hi EE. Thanks for your patience. I've trimmed your post down to just this little section, as it is the meat of your interpretation.
As you wish.

Let's start with the conflation of Armageddon and Hinnom. I have never seen that those two are derived from the same place. The consonants aren't even close. This is not my specialty, so I looked it up, and I don't see it anywhere else, either.

Here's the description of Megiddo when the Israelites divided up Canaan: [Jos 17:10-11 KJV] 10 Southward [it was] Ephraim's, and northward [it was] Manasseh's, and the sea is his border; and they met together in Asher on the north, and in Issachar on the east. 11 And Manasseh had in Issachar and in Asher Bethshean and her towns, and Ibleam and her towns, and the inhabitants of Dor and her towns, and the inhabitants of Endor and her towns, and the inhabitants of Taanach and her towns, and the inhabitants of Megiddo and her towns, [even] three countries.

Manasseh was north of Ephraim, and Ephraim was one of the 10 northern tribes that became Samaria. It was a fair bit north of Jerusalem.

Hinnom was south of Jerusalem: [Jos 15:8 KJV] 8 And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same [is] Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that [lieth] before the valley of Hinnom westward, which [is] at the end of the valley of the giants northward

These are not the same place.

I don't have a problem with the locusts being representative of a swarm of people, but Joel 1 seems to be describing...locusts. And I already mentioned that it seems strange for the people of God to come out of the abyss/bottomless pit--the same one, I suppose, that is the habitation of Satan, at least for 1000 years.

But the Armageddon reference (Rev 9) came BEFORE Satan was cast into that abyss (Rev 20:2), and then Satan was released from the abyss (Rev 20:7), after which he is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). These are chronologically in order.

[Rev 20:9-10 KJV] 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice that Satan's army compassed the camp of the saints on the earth (apparently Jerusalem), but the fire came down out of heaven (angels, maybe, but the saints were already come down out of heaven in vs 4). But beyond the fire coming down from heaven, the devil is then cast into a lake of fire. If the lake of fire is the valley of Hinnom (not immediately apparent from these verses), and that lake was where the beast and false prophet were cast before the 1000 years, and that area was south of Jerusalem, then why do more angels need to come out of heaven prior to the devil being cast into the lake of fire. Seems like the locations and the transitions between them don't allow for your interpretation.

But now that we've gotten to the verse about everlasting torment. Does that verse not really mean "tormented"? Or does it not mean "day and night"? Or does it not mean "forever and ever"?

Let's just allow for your interpretation that believers and angels are the "hellfire". Are you really willing to say that they (we) actively torment satan, and the beast, and the false prophet, not to mention everybody that has already been resurrected but not found in the Lamb's book of life, day and night forever and ever? That's not quite the picture of everlasting life I was looking forward to.

Click to expand...

One more thing... Your biblical study quotes are excellent and I am so very sorry my first few edits of my previous response were so riddled with typos. I didn't get the time to initially proof read matters.

It is an honor to be scrutinized by you biblical points and engaging responses. Whatever the outcome of our discussion... I recognize a devout student of God and scripture when I speak with one.

All of His Best prayed to you and yours,

- EE

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

Hi Derf,
You are now wading in correctly and I acknowledge that I am a mere human being sharing perspective.

Click to expand...

As am I.

There are keys to understanding Revelation, as you well know. I will drop them and move forward with a bit of answering.

The Keys...

Revelation is "not" sequential... outside of direct speech. It loops. The events parralell one another and act as book ends to Old Testament Prophecy.

Click to expand...

I don't think Revelation is consistently chronological,
but certain events have to be to make sense. For instance, if Satan is let loose from the abyss at the end of the 1000 years, and he is put in the abyss at the beginning of the 1000 years, it makes no sense to switch the order of those things. If Satan is cast into the lake of fire "where the beast and false prophet", it doesn't make sense to say that the beast and false prophet HAVE NOT YET been cast into the lake of fire.
That's why I gave referential timing as best I could find. My reference to Armageddon was weaker, being in Rev 16, but the others are all in the same chapter (Rev 20). Surely you can't negotiate a different sequence in that one chapter, especially as it gives relative time-hacks. And Ch 20 follows necessarily from Ch 19, which follows necessarily from Ch 16.

Let's work backward from Rev 20:
20:10 Satan cast into lake of fire, where beast and false prophet are (or were cast)
20:7 1000 years end and Satan is loosed
20:3 1000 years begins as Satan is bound
19:20 The beast and false prophet are defeated and cast into the lake of fire ("Supper of God occurs")
19:19 The beast and the kings of the earth are already gathered with their armies
19:17-18 The fowls of the air are invited to feast on flesh ("Supper of God")
19:11-16 Jesus readies Himself and His army
19:7-9 Jesus marries His Bride and "blessed" are those invited to the "marriage Supper of the Lamb"
[indent=.2]19:2 Rejoicing over the judgment of "Babylon"
18 Lamentation over "Babylon"
17 Judgment of the great whore: "Babylon"
16:19 God remembers "Babylon" and begins the judgment[/indent]
16:16 Beast/False Prophet/Dragon gather armies to the place called "Armageddon"

Each of the events is necessarily preceded by other events, such that you can't re-order them. The interesting difference seems to be the judgment of the great whore/Babylon. But looking through it as chronologous, it appears that the kings gathered first to attack Babylon, and then they were already gathered to make war against Christ.

Remember... Genesis did this for the creation account. We see expansive narrative that speaks of the Creation account and then it loops to Man and Woman in the Garden on the 6th Day. ... this is a Prophetic Key.

Click to expand...

There are folks that think the 7s are referring to the same events in revelation, but it's certain that not all of them do. Even so, I don't think the pit/abyss references can in any way be applied to Christ and His bride.

I spoiler'd the next section of your quote to cut down post size:

Why is this important?

Satan has been a busy beaver and he is setting up a people to literally attempt to kill the Jesus that claimed to die on the cross. I'll drop this and allow you to pick up the study or set it down. I would have to generate 100's of Thousands of character to convey all of this past citing what I have studied and is there for you to search out.

Heb. 2:14 is also noted as a key... note that Death is the final thing to get cast in the pit. Death is a title of none other than the Dragon Himself...

I'll cite the exact scripture that makes this important to know, because it is imperritive to note alongside several passages...

Ezekiel 28 and surrounding scripture is well known to be duel Prophecy of a spiritual nature. It typifies Satan and shows Hos fate..l Let's go there first...

Ezekiel 28:10... yes it is about another, but note that the connotation is a beast power and thus returns back to it's true head and "Prince". Satan.

Ezekiel 31:18 is again a warning to Satan in spiritual form.

1st Samuel 17:36 is a lead up to David and Goliath which again is a picture of Satan being destroyed by HIS own Sword.

Ezekiel 28:18 is again a picture of Satan. This parallels the Herrodian picture we have Here... Acts 12:23

Consider Harmon and Judah on their own Gallows.

What I'm about to say is rejected by much of Christendom and only spoken by many who have no idea what they understand without understanding..l but here it is...

The Spirit quenched worm is a picture of maggots destroying a corpse forever and the root of a man is God, thus if root nor branch-(his soul and body) is left of Him... this is utter soul annihilation. Mal. 4:1

Click to expand...

Let's pause here for a bit. You seem to be going mystical on me and assigning meanings that the scriptures don't immediately seem to support. Not all roots and branches are God. In this passage it seems to be talking about an annihilation, but not necessarily of a soul. "Root" and "branch" are often signifiers of ancestors and descendants, or a person and his offspring. I would suggest that's the case here--that God will destroy them physically and leave them no legacy/progeny. I don't think it really deals with the destruction of the soul.

I will go even further to say that the wicked are promised destruction all throughout scripture and thus... even eternal torment is a form of life... so it is off to take the prophecy that utilizes eternal verbiage that binds to eternal destruction with ALL OT teachings. If Jesus destroys a soul... that human being is Gone eternally. No soul... no existence. Consider Christ's words on this matter and His knowledge of Gehenna.

Click to expand...

There are a few things I could say here. One is that death is considered a form of life--We were dead in our tresspasses and sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13, Rom 5:6). Is it possible that life could be considered a form of death?

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. [Rev 20:5 KJV] (If there's a first, there needs to be a second to make the text make sense.)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [Rev 20:12 KJV] (Can the dead stand? These people were resurrected, seemingly bodily, as part of the second resurrection. Why, if the soul and body will just be destroyed a little later?)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [Rev 20:14 KJV] (Can a dead person die? If it is appointed unto man once to die (Heb 9:27), and the wages of sin is death, why do these die again? haven't they already fulfilled God's punishment for them in the first death? Does God take pleasure in the death of the wicked? Why then would He take pleasure in a second death? Why resurrect someone just to kill them better?)

Gehenna or Hinnom was a place of eternal burning for trash and war bodies. You can search this out in history of the biblical nature. It was also a place of child sacrifice. Child Saccrifice pisses God off faster than any other act. He wiped these people out as they soiled God's very Name with such wicked offerings. Moles was the God that received the child sacrifices.

Biblically speaking.., God spit in Satan's face by sacrificing Himself as His Child offering of appeasement. It was God's way of telling Satan that God would rather Saccrifice His self/Son then be such a vile God that would Saccrifice another's child.

This all adds up to what I am saying... and it further shows that the eternal torment verbiage has spiritual implications that are significant to God.

We know that God Loves His enemies and we know the winepress will get trod by God Himself, but the idea that God would permit eternal torture is directly contrary to His just and perfect mercy. Satan and the false prophet may very well have some form of eternal punishment, but ALL scripture points to a stoning of the SOUL by God Himself in some form or fashion that brings about the destruction of the soul.

Click to expand...

Satan, the Adversary, was an enemy of God. He was also a creation of God. If God loves His enemies, as you stated, what could Satan do to deserve so terrible a fate. If you allow for his eternal torment, there's a crack in your dam. If you then allow the beast eternal punishment, the water is flowing rather quickly. If now you add the false prophet, why not Hitler and Stalin? Chairman Mao? Leopold II of Belgium? Pol Pot? Should I keep going? Aren't there many enemies of God? James 4:4. Does God love His enemies? Please help me with some scripture.

Maybe you can also help me with the "stoning of the soul" reference. It isn't familiar to me.

I appreciate your patience with me and acknowledge that I am just a human being that has an opinion... but if you concordance search "The Day of The Lord" in scripture and cross reference each passage and divide the first coming from the second while recognizing duel Prophecy in the matter as well..l you will come to this very conclusion.

Click to expand...

I did the search. Here are the exact matches in the KJV (there may be other, not-so-exact matches). Every one of them seem to be referring to a day of judgment. Only some talk of good things in addition to the judgment, but certainly not all.
And not all seem to refer to the same event--maybe that's what you mean by dual prophecy--but it might be a case of too broad an application. Maybe "the Day of the Lord" can refer to severe judgment on a nation or nations, but not always the same day of the Lord. Look especially at the Ezekiel references that seem to talk of Egyptians dying in Egypt, not up in Israel.

Hinnom Vally and Jehoshaphat are very important and serve as types and possible locations.

I have attempted to give enough information for you to search this matter out, biput this took me years of study and if you are led by the Spirit and curious within the will of God.. I would be interested to hear what you found.

I'm okay if you maintain another perspective and respect yours as being as valid as mine. You are passionate about Jesus and this is not essential doctrine, but... I again challenge you to dig and try me. Note that you are biblically devout and Christ centered so you have continued to search as I provide a bit more at a time.

Why don't you do what I did... Ask God to show you and promise Him that you only will know this with humility and according to His will. If I'm wrong on the matter, I have no pride. It's His plan anyway and as you... I exalt His choices and Will as far supreme to mine.l. Thus.. I Love Him as He does matters as He alone pleases and chooses... in the END.

Click to expand...

I haven't considered this topic before just recently (previously in this thread). If the ETC view is wrong, I would much rather let it go. But the implications if it is right are rather staggering, don't you think?

Your brother in Him, respectful of your scholarly willingness to challenge and learn, while sharpening a fellow traveler... led by Him...

- Evil.Eye.<(I)>

The cheat sheets are by people that cite Eastern Eschatology vs. Western Eschatology and thus recognize the supremacy of Israel in Eschatology. There are even many conflicting views within this camp...

But.. the literal accuracy of the matter is bone chilling and faith building.

Click to expand...

Did you provide links to some cheat sheets? I missed them if you did.

It's a pleasure to discuss this stuff with you, EE. I don't want to downplay your points. Perhaps I haven't really appreciated the logic leading up to your conclusions, but it seemed like there was a lot of stuff in your post that didn't really have much to do with the specific topic. Interesting stuff, but not germaine.

Boiling it all down, I think you are saying the same thing others have said here:

1. Death/destruction is final, so no "life" after destruction in the fire.
2. Eternal existence in fire is still "life", and unbelievers/sinners are promised "death"
3. God is good, so torment can't last forever.

I would like to believe these arguments against eternal hell-fire--I don't really like the idea of an eternal existence in a lake of fire for anybody. But it seems like the "death is final" argument doesn't work because of the 2nd resurrection. I think the 2nd argument is the strongest. The best I have to offer right now is that "life" may be ambiguous in meaning, since "death" is ambiguous. And God's goodness is defined by what He decides to do--we can't apply our sense of morality to Him; rather we apply His sense of morality to us--that's really the message of the whole bible, imo.

My latest theory about why it works out that people spend eternity in torment is this: Christ died for the ungodly, which includes everybody. If His sacrifice really applies to everyone, there is a case to be made that everybody will experience the benefit from His death. So if everyone is resurrected, but some still won't acknowledge God/Jesus as Lord (which seems necessary to be in His presence forever), and they've already been resurrected from the dead (and death has no more power over them), then what is to be done with them? If God can no longer kill them, the only thing left is banishment. And banishment from the source of all good can't mean anything except bad.

Derf said:

As am I. I don't think Revelation is consistently chronological,
but certain events have to be to make sense. For instance, if Satan is let loose from the abyss at the end of the 1000 years, and he is put in the abyss at the beginning of the 1000 years, it makes no sense to switch the order of those things. If Satan is cast into the lake of fire "where the beast and false prophet", it doesn't make sense to say that the beast and false prophet HAVE NOT YET been cast into the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying and I can't deny that it must be considered. It is refreshing to receive the perspective of an individual that is willing to search and acknowledge that they don't have all the answers, and study with perpetual willingness to learn! You make excellent points.

Derf said:

That's why I gave referential timing as best I could find. My reference to Armageddon was weaker, being in Rev 16, but the others are all in the same chapter (Rev 20). Surely you can't negotiate a different sequence in that one chapter, especially as it gives relative time-hacks. And Ch 20 follows necessarily from Ch 19, which follows necessarily from Ch 16.

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Sounds good to me.

Derf said:

Let's work backward from Rev 20:
20:10 Satan cast into lake of fire, where beast and false prophet are (or were cast)
20:7 1000 years end and Satan is loosed
20:3 1000 years begins as Satan is bound
19:20 The beast and false prophet are defeated and cast into the lake of fire ("Supper of God occurs")
19:19 The beast and the kings of the earth are already gathered with their armies
19:17-18 The fowls of the air are invited to feast on flesh ("Supper of God")
19:11-16 Jesus readies Himself and His army
19:7-9 Jesus marries His Bride and "blessed" are those invited to the "marriage Supper of the Lamb"
[indent=.2]19:2 Rejoicing over the judgment of "Babylon"
18 Lamentation over "Babylon"
17 Judgment of the great whore: "Babylon"
16:19 God remembers "Babylon" and begins the judgment[/indent]
16:16 Beast/False Prophet/Dragon gather armies to the place called "Armageddon"

Each of the events is necessarily preceded by other events, such that you can't re-order them. The interesting difference seems to be the judgment of the great whore/Babylon. But looking through it as chronologous, it appears that the kings gathered first to attack Babylon, and then they were already gathered to make war against Christ.

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I agree with your observation but note a perplexing matter... if Jesus equates the "Lake of Fire" with "Destruction of the Soul" (Mt. 10:28)... and then the Beast and False prophet are cast in... something seems to be off.

Also... about the locusts... the person unlocking the pit of death has to have the "keys" of death (metaphorically speaking...) ... and on that note... would the INDIVIDUAL who truly has them to give... give them back to Satan? (Rev. 1:18) ...

Also... Joel 1 and 2 perfectly correlates with Revelation 9 ... Did you see these verses in Joel 2?


Also... note that Romans 11:25-36 specifically insinuates that there will be dead Jews that are under God's promise. The pit isn't full of just evil people. Consider the story where Tamar presents Judah with his items and thus is "spared" from the fire. I'm saying that not everyone in the pit is evil and I'm further saying that Jesus is the one that has the Keys to death and thus... why would He give that power back to Satan, when Heb. 2:14 shows that He took it away and Revelation verifies this?


Note that God is in charge of the events and in this even the locusts are spoken of as people and these people have crowns on their heads. Something is off. This is like the plagues of Egypt and trying to get Pharaoh to let the Israelite's go.

Perhaps the king of the crowd is (Jude 1:9) ... but he is the false king and the people he thought he had in the pit aren't all his? Betrayal of Satan's power... Lets say that Abadon is Satan... to make this discussion flow more easily...

Note that the army can't harm God's people? On this note... Thesalonians is clear that God's people are removed from this equation... so we can only surmise that God's people are the Jews that are resurrected and the Jews that remain. "Rev. 9:4 ...but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." Does this not correlate with the passage of the sealing that correlates to the Jews? To number them (12 X 12) and identify that number as THEE number is rather speculative.

This seems like Egypt all over again... are you following me. I admit that the angel of the pit is possibly likely satan... but are those people all "his"?

Could God be planning this?...



Could the King be finalizing matters and drawing his BRIDE (Israel) from all time, away from the clutches of evil?

Derf said:

There are folks that think the 7s are referring to the same events in revelation, but it's certain that not all of them do. Even so, I don't think the pit/abyss references can in any way be applied to Christ and His bride.

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We are both in flux...and seemingly so out of sincerity that we won't know until we see it all unfold. This makes discussing this with you a joy! Gratitude for the back and forth. I haven't made my mind up about the 7's completely. I leave room for study in this matter that does not go away.

Derf said:

I spoiler'd the next section of your quote to cut down post size:

Spoiler

Let's pause here for a bit. You seem to be going mystical on me and assigning meanings that the scriptures don't immediately seem to support. Not all roots and branches are God. In this passage it seems to be talking about an annihilation, but not necessarily of a soul. "Root" and "branch" are often signifiers of ancestors and descendants, or a person and his offspring. I would suggest that's the case here--that God will destroy them physically and leave them no legacy/progeny. I don't think it really deals with the destruction of the soul.There are a few things I could say here. One is that death is considered a form of life--We were dead in our tresspasses and sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13, Rom 5:6). Is it possible that life could be considered a form of death?

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I meant Judas and Haman from Esther... I admit the days matter is speculation, but you don't see Satan and his fate typified in scripture? Could you check those passages one more time? I do see Satan typified in them. Jesus has a literal "Adversary" and He says this... (John 5:39) ... you don't think He buried information about the very one that is running a perpetual smear campaign in them?

Derf said:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. [Rev 20:5 KJV] (If there's a first, there needs to be a second to make the text make sense.)

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This is interesting... Because this first Resurrection is being discussed, but we know He led captives captive. Is this first Resurrection... is the Body of Christ receiving bodies? Are we not with Him after death? Do we not come back with Him as Thessalonians states? Did not a Resurrection occur upon Christ's death? The division of the first as the first, when Christ is a picture of the "first fruits" (Israel) is very imperative. Where does the Body of Christ fit in with this matter?

Derf said:

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [Rev 20:12 KJV] (Can the dead stand? These people were resurrected, seemingly bodily, as part of the second resurrection. Why, if the soul and body will just be destroyed a little later?)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [Rev 20:14 KJV] (Can a dead person die? If it is appointed unto man once to die (Heb 9:27), and the wages of sin is death, why do these die again? haven't they already fulfilled God's punishment for them in the first death? Does God take pleasure in the death of the wicked? Why then would He take pleasure in a second death? Why resurrect someone just to kill them better?)Satan, the Adversary, was an enemy of God. He was also a creation of God. If God loves His enemies, as you stated, what could Satan do to deserve so terrible a fate. If you allow for his eternal torment, there's a crack in your dam. If you then allow the beast eternal punishment, the water is flowing rather quickly. If now you add the false prophet, why not Hitler and Stalin? Chairman Mao? Leopold II of Belgium? Pol Pot? Should I keep going? Aren't there many enemies of God? James 4:4. Does God love His enemies? Please help me with some scripture.

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An interesting point here... this is where the issues really come up for me. How is Death and Death's kingdom thrown in the lake of fire, when we know that DEATH is a reference to Satan per Heb. 2:14 and 1 Co. 15:53f; 54f; 56 ?

There is much here to be thought about. I only leave room for understanding to show that I do not have a concrete understanding of this matter that I would assert as the facts.

Derf said:

Maybe you can also help me with the "stoning of the soul" reference. It isn't familiar to me.I did the search. Here are the exact matches in the KJV (there may be other, not-so-exact matches). Every one of them seem to be referring to a day of judgment. Only some talk of good things in addition to the judgment, but certainly not all.
And not all seem to refer to the same event--maybe that's what you mean by dual prophecy--but it might be a case of too broad an application. Maybe "the Day of the Lord" can refer to severe judgment on a nation or nations, but not always the same day of the Lord. Look especially at the Ezekiel references that seem to talk of Egyptians dying in Egypt, not up in Israel.

Spoiler

[Isa 2:12 KJV] 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
[Isa 13:6, 9 KJV] 6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. ... 9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
[Jer 46:10 KJV] 10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
[Eze 13:5 KJV] 5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
[Eze 30:3 KJV] 3 For the day [is] near, even the day of the LORD [is] near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
[Joe 1:15 KJV] 15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
[Joe 2:1, 11, 31 KJV] 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand; ... 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? ... 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
[Joe 3:14 KJV] 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.
[Amos 5:18, 20 KJV] 18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light. ... 20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
[Obad 1:15 KJV] 15 For the day of the LORD [is] near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[Zep 1:7, 14 KJV] 7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD [is] at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. ... 14 The great day of the LORD [is] near, [it is] near, and hasteth greatly, [even] the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
[Zec 14:1 KJV] 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[Mal 4:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[Act 2:20 KJV] 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[2Co 1:14 KJV] 14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[1Th 5:2 KJV] 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[2Pe 3:10 KJV] 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I haven't considered this topic before just recently (previously in this thread). If the ETC view is wrong, I would much rather let it go. But the implications if it is right are rather staggering, don't you think?
Did you provide links to some cheat sheets? I missed them if you did.

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Derf said:

It's a pleasure to discuss this stuff with you, EE. I don't want to downplay your points. Perhaps I haven't really appreciated the logic leading up to your conclusions, but it seemed like there was a lot of stuff in your post that didn't really have much to do with the specific topic. Interesting stuff, but not germaine.

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My sentiment is mutual. This is indeed a joy!
[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION]... I'm adding this in... I will reply by Wednesday of next week... I don't want to rush answering the excellent questions you have drawn attention to! I'm happy to say that you've got me back in the Good Book on this matter with deep thought!

Derf said:

Boiling it all down, I think you are saying the same thing others have said here:

1. Death/destruction is final, so no "life" after destruction in the fire.
2. Eternal existence in fire is still "life", and unbelievers/sinners are promised "death"
3. God is good, so torment can't last forever.

I would like to believe these arguments against eternal hell-fire--I don't really like the idea of an eternal existence in a lake of fire for anybody. But it seems like the "death is final" argument doesn't work because of the 2nd resurrection. I think the 2nd argument is the strongest. The best I have to offer right now is that "life" may be ambiguous in meaning, since "death" is ambiguous. And God's goodness is defined by what He decides to do--we can't apply our sense of morality to Him; rather we apply His sense of morality to us--that's really the message of the whole bible, imo.

My latest theory about why it works out that people spend eternity in torment is this: Christ died for the ungodly, which includes everybody. If His sacrifice really applies to everyone, there is a case to be made that everybody will experience the benefit from His death. So if everyone is resurrected, but some still won't acknowledge God/Jesus as Lord (which seems necessary to be in His presence forever), and they've already been resurrected from the dead (and death has no more power over them), then what is to be done with them? If God can no longer kill them, the only thing left is banishment. And banishment from the source of all good can't mean anything except bad.

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To be continued... I'll reply in the near future to the rest.

John was in the Spirit which throws a monkey wrench into the literal foolishness concerning the interptetation which is the inward fight that Ehp tells you about..

Zeke said:

John was in the Spirit which throws a monkey wrench into the literal foolishness concerning the interptetation which is the inward fight that Ehp tells you about..

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Zeke... there's spiritualizing... and then there's just plain denial. You've been led to go way past spiritualizing and I'm certain you are glossing over some good meat.

- EE

Ps... Jesus called and wanted me to remind you that He's GOD!

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

Zeke... there's spiritualizing... and then there's just plain denial. You've been led to go way past spiritualizing and I'm certain you are glossing over some good meat.

- EE

Ps... Jesus called and wanted me to remind you that He's GOD!

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Paul told you where the temple of God is located as did Jesus yet you cling to the dead meaning of the letter and waste time by trying to make allegory literal the Divine is love the more excellent way over weaving grand delusions taught to the carmal minded, which is what you ignorantly do, inffected by exclusive religious pride that has forgot its first love.

A STUDY OF ANY LITERAL TRANSLATION OF THE SCRIPTURES WILL SHOW THAT "ETERNAL" MEANS "AGE LASTING" OR "EONIAN", PERIODS OF TIME WHICH ARE NOT UNNLIMITED.
GOD IS DEALING WITH MAN IN DIFFERENT WAYS IN DIFFERENT "AGES".
FROM GENESIS ON, THE APPEAL TO MAN WAS TO DESIRE LIFE RATHER THAN LIFE. THIS IS SO TRUE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.
MY HOPE AS A CHRISTIAN IS IS TO BE
"VIVIFIED", AS CHRIST WAS, THAT IS, MADE ALIVE WITHOUT DYING.
IT IS WRITTEN, "THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH" (ROM. 6:23), AND ALL OF US WILL DIE UNLESS WE ARE MADE ALIVE AT THE "RAPTURE."
THE LAKE OF FIRE IS THE SECOND DEATH FOR ALL CAST INTO IT. IMO, THEY WILL BE COVERTED AND BEG FOR MERCY BEFORE CHRIST JESUS ON HIS THRONE IN ALL HIS GLORY. NEVERTHELESS, THEY WILL DIE AND BE THERE FOR THE EONS, BUT NOT FOREVER.
WE READ IN 1COR. 15:26 THAT THE LAST ENEMY TO BE ANNULLED IS DEATH, WHICH
MEANS THAT ALL THOSE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE WILL BE MADE ALIVE, AND GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL.





L

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ...

Don't give up on me... I'm trying to clear my head of posturing on this matter. I will return. I want to give you more ear on this matter and less of my opinion. I'm giving myself time to open back up to the full learning stage.

All respect and gratitude,

- EE

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ...

Don't give up on me... I'm trying to clear my head of posturing on this matter. I will return. I want to give you more ear on this matter and less of my opinion. I'm giving myself time to open back up to the full learning stage.

All respect and gratitude,

- EE

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No problem, EE. Take your time. I may have to be away from TOL for a few days anyway.

Derf

Re. post #6407....EvilEye


When you said that "Megiddo" is derived from "Hinnom" I had to read it a second time; as someone brought out, they aren't connected at all. Anyway, I find your thoughts on hell-fire compelling. I agree with you that the soul can be destroyed, and that death is the punishment for unrelenting sin. Someone is not dead who is living enough to feel pain in a fire. I believe that when Jesus mentioned Gehenna he was focusing on the result of burning in flames, rather than the burning itself. If something is set fire to, it eventually disappears. That is what Jesus was trying to say.....a person who goes to Gehenna, symbolically speaking, is in actuality totally obliterated forever. Enough of a punishment, wouldn't someone have to say?

So the answer to the OP questions is NO! Eternal conscious torment is NOT Biblical. John 3:16 said it plainly: "whosoever believes in Jesus should not PERISH." A person who is being consciously roasted in a fire for all time is not PERISHING.

I have to disagree with you when you say that God offered HIMSELF to die in our places. That is clearly unscriptural. The Bible says that God sent His only-begotten SON, not Himself. (John 3:16)

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

My full posture is that any extra scriptural writing is simply discussion amongst believers for the sharpening of iron.

As for Israel... this is a good matter. You reject the replacement doctrine... and... this is fantastic!

You are correct about Revelation and note... I used the word "predominantly"... so we are on track.

I will drop a bread crumb and if you feel that the effort is lacking... and wish that I just blurt my full opinion on the matter... I will. But... here comes the bread crumb.

What does the Old Testament reveal about the coming of Jesus and who is He coming to?

Hint at my direction of discussion... Those of the air in the book of Revelation 19:18 seem to paint a different picture of the "wedding feast" then we would have pictured as it was layed out in the parables of Jesus.

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How can any Christian reject "Replacement Theology"? Our blessed Lord was rejected and murdered by the Jewish religious leaders of his day, and you think that they are still God's special people? "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled." (Acts 2:36)

Did you miss I Peter 2:9,10 where Peter says that the Christian congregation is now God's special people?

"But you [Christians] are a 'chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God's people."

freelight said:

God is love

Love could not will, enforce or ordain any soul to a state of endless irredeemable unquenchable pain, suffering or torment. Love does no harm, neither wills it.

My commentaries on ECT cataloged here from this thread and elsewhere still holds, unless modified or changed in the future. Since love is both eternal and infinite I see no major modifications at present.​

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I totally agree!