Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Shasta said:

Again you are inserting your own words into the text. As I said before, though the term "world" (kosmos) is often used to signify all the inhabitants of the earth or else the subset of ungodly men it is not used for the "elect." Here is what John Calvin had to say about the word:



Commenting on John 3:16 Calvin says that "world" means the entire human race which, he says, God loves and does not want to perish.

I will also comment on the scripture you brought up

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

It is certainly true that God did not save us according to our works but according to his grace. However, since none of us has been around very long, relatively speaking, in what way could God have given us anything "before the world began?" Since only God was around then we can assume that His purpose and grace towards us was present in His mind even then. Since God knows the minds and choices of every being that would exist it is not surprising that He would know which ones of us would voluntarily receive His grace and choose to be a part of His purpose.

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Shasta said:

I believe 1 John 2:2 also and it contradicts the idea that "world" means the world of the elect

2 And He Himself is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for OUR sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world 1 John 2:2.

When John says "our sins" he is including himself as a believer and the other believers who received his letter. Then he goes on to include "the whole world." Now if "world" meant the world of the elect then he has repeated himself, just as much as if he had said "He is the atoning sacrifice for believer's sins and not only for believers sins but also for that of believers

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beloved57 said:

Its no way he believes or understand that verse. That's a saved whole world there.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

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Shasta said:

I believe 1 John 2:2 also and it contradicts the idea that "world" means the world of the elect

2 And He Himself is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for OUR sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world 1 John 2:2.

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Ask Mr. Religion said:

You need to be more careful in your view of the verse in question. On needs to understand the context as well as how the author, John, uses words in Scripture. Lifting a verse outside of these things will lead to the erroneous claims you are making.

If here "world" (kosmos) is a reference to the whole planet, consideration of the historical context in which John wrote makes a more proper interpretation to be the universal scope of Christ’s sacrifice in the sense that no one’s race, nationality, or any other trait will keep that person from receiving the full benefit of Christ’s sacrifice if and when they come to faith.

In the ancient world, the gods were parochial and had geographically limited jurisdictions. In the mountains, one sought the favor of the mountain gods; on the sea, of the sea gods. Ancient warfare was waged in the belief that the gods of the opposing nations were fighting as well, and the outcome would be determined by whose god was strongest. Against that kind of pagan mentality, John asserts that the efficacy of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is valid everywhere, for people everywhere, that is, “the whole world.” The Christian gospel knows no geographic, racial, ethnic, national, or cultural boundaries.

That said, “world” in John’s writings is also often used to refer not to the planet or all its inhabitants, but to the system of fallen human culture, with its values, morals, and ethics as a whole. "World" is that which is totally opposed to God and all that belongs to Him. It is almost always associated with the side of darkness in the Johannine duality, wherein people are characterized in John’s writings as being either “of God” or “of the world” (see John 8:23; 15:19; 17:6,14,16; 18:36; 1 John 2:16; 4:5). Those who have been born of God are taken out of that spiritual sphere, though not out of the geographical place or physical population that is concurrent with it (John 13:1; 17:15).

So rather than teaching universalism, John here instead announces the exclusivity of the Christian gospel. Since Christ’s atonement is the one and only efficacious atonement for the “whole world,” there is no other form of atonement available to other peoples, cultures, and religions apart from Jesus Christ.

AMR

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Shasta said:

I have never said the Bible or John specifically taught universalism only that Christ died for the world of unregenerate sinners. Even though He is THE one and only sacrifice for sin, that fact does not save anyone until they actually believe in Him and surrender their lives to Him. I have said before that "the world" can mean that community of men who are in opposition to God. This is beside the point. Who else needs a sacrifice but sinners and all men are sinners?

What classic Calvinist doctrine teaches is that there is no sacrifice for the sins of any but the "elect." That is quite a different matter and it was to this doctrine that I was directing my remarks. Therefore, my original point stands. When John differentiates between the forgiveness of his sins (and that of his readers) he is referring to the efficacy of His sacrifice for believers. By the time his letter had been written there were more Gentiles in the Church than Jews and within any company of believers you would be likely to find people of every cultural background. John then goes on to say that Christ was also a sacrifice for the whole "world" that is, for everyone else outside of the circle of people who are Christians. Anyone outside Christianity is in the world which is why he used the term. If he meant the sacrifice availed in every case then everyone's sins would be forgiven. However, no person can receive forgiveness of sin unless and until they put their faith in Jesus Christ. I do not think John had in mind the various cultures, tribes and languages that divide humanity. I think he had in mind the one thing that unites humanity before they come to Christ - their sin and falleness.

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TulipBee said:

There is no word "whosoever" in the Greek text. Literally the section reads "the believing ones into Him." God so loved the world that the ones who believed into Christ may not perish but have everlasting life. Oftentimes Pelagian and Arminian advocates stress the word "whosoever" where the word does not even exist. The Gospel here is directed to those who believe, and to no more.

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Robert Pate said:

You don't know what you are talking about.

The word "Whosoever" word #G3956 in the Greek Dictionary of Strongs Concordance means all, anyone, everyone.

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TulipBee said:

I'm amazed when Arminians call Calvinism a cult. When I was once an arminian, I never even heard of Calvinism.
After years of being under arminian teaching, I was never satisfied, I was hungry for something but did not know what?
I questioned my old pastor about certain scriptures that I had read in the Bible about Grace and security, he said that I sounded like a Calvinist.
I went to my local Christian bookshop to see what this Calvinism was all about, and started to read Calvinist literature. Then everything started to fit into place, true freedom, sound doctrine and eternal security, after finding a reformed fellowship, I never looked back.
Classing Calvinism as a cult? Well cult members are insecure, doubt their salvation and are works based to earn merits.
The Reformed faith is complete freedom.
A filthy sinner saved by a perfect sovereign Saviour !

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Robert Pate said:

You didn't find Christ and his Gospel. What you found was something that pleased your flesh.

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TulipBee said:

There is no word "whosoever" in the Greek text. Literally the section reads "the believing ones into Him." God so loved the world that the ones who believed into Christ may not perish but have everlasting life. Oftentimes Pelagian and Arminian advocates stress the word "whosoever" where the word does not even exist. The Gospel here is directed to those who believe, and to no more.

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Shasta said:

In John 3:16 the verb translated "ones believing" in Him is a present tense participle. As a participle the noun is cojoined with an activity, in this case believing. Had it been conjugated in the aorist tense it would have meant "the ones who believed at a certain point in time. The action of believing would, in this instance, have been a singular event after which the person would never perish.

However John did not use the aorist tense he used the present tense. The present tense signifies ongoing enduring activity. Thus this scripture does not support the idea that a person will never perish based solely upon a one-time profession of faith. While believing in Christ does begin at some point it must remain and continue in order for the final result of eternal life to be realized. Incidentally, in this regard I am in agreement with Augustine and Martin Luther though not with Calvin.

Though the word "whosoever" is not in the verse the inclusive word "all" is. Pan means all or everyone which is very close to "whosoever." John is putting no restrictions on which group of people can benefit from the gift of the Son. The unqualified invitation is given to anyone who will believe.

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TulipBee said:

I'm amazed when Arminians call Calvinism a cult. When I was once an arminian, I never even heard of Calvinism.
After years of being under arminian teaching, I was never satisfied, I was hungry for something but did not know what?
I questioned my old pastor about certain scriptures that I had read in the Bible about Grace and security, he said that I sounded like a Calvinist.
I went to my local Christian bookshop to see what this Calvinism was all about, and started to read Calvinist literature. Then everything started to fit into place, true freedom, sound doctrine and eternal security, after finding a reformed fellowship, I never looked back.
Classing Calvinism as a cult? Well cult members are insecure, doubt their salvation and are works based to earn merits.
The Reformed faith is complete freedom.
A filthy sinner saved by a perfect sovereign Saviour !

Click to expand...

TulipBee said:

I'm amazed when Arminians call Calvinism a cult. When I was once an arminian, I never even heard of Calvinism.
After years of being under arminian teaching, I was never satisfied, I was hungry for something but did not know what?
I questioned my old pastor about certain scriptures that I had read in the Bible about Grace and security, he said that I sounded like a Calvinist.
I went to my local Christian bookshop to see what this Calvinism was all about, and started to read Calvinist literature. Then everything started to fit into place, true freedom, sound doctrine and eternal security, after finding a reformed fellowship, I never looked back.
Classing Calvinism as a cult? Well cult members are insecure, doubt their salvation and are works based to earn merits.
The Reformed faith is complete freedom.
A filthy sinner saved by a perfect sovereign Saviour !

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Eagles Wings said:

Great post and testimony. To God be the Glory.

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God's Truth said:

Calvinism does not save, only Jesus saves.

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God's Truth said:

How is it glory to God if one does not obey God?

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Ask Mr. Religion said:

You need to be more careful in your view of the verse in question. On needs to understand the context as well as how the author, John, uses words in Scripture. Lifting a verse outside of these things will lead to the erroneous claims you are making.

If here "world" (kosmos) is a reference to the whole planet, consideration of the historical context in which John wrote makes a more proper interpretation to be the universal scope of Christ’s sacrifice in the sense that no one’s race, nationality, or any other trait will keep that person from receiving the full benefit of Christ’s sacrifice if and when they come to faith.

In the ancient world, the gods were parochial and had geographically limited jurisdictions. In the mountains, one sought the favor of the mountain gods; on the sea, of the sea gods. Ancient warfare was waged in the belief that the gods of the opposing nations were fighting as well, and the outcome would be determined by whose god was strongest. Against that kind of pagan mentality, John asserts that the efficacy of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is valid everywhere, for people everywhere, that is, “the whole world.” The Christian gospel knows no geographic, racial, ethnic, national, or cultural boundaries.

That said, “world” in John’s writings is also often used to refer not to the planet or all its inhabitants, but to the system of fallen human culture, with its values, morals, and ethics as a whole. "World" is that which is totally opposed to God and all that belongs to Him. It is almost always associated with the side of darkness in the Johannine duality, wherein people are characterized in John’s writings as being either “of God” or “of the world” (see John 8:23; 15:19; 17:6,14,16; 18:36; 1 John 2:16; 4:5). Those who have been born of God are taken out of that spiritual sphere, though not out of the geographical place or physical population that is concurrent with it (John 13:1; 17:15).

So rather than teaching universalism, John here instead announces the exclusivity of the Christian gospel. Since Christ’s atonement is the one and only efficacious atonement for the “whole world,” there is no other form of atonement available to other peoples, cultures, and religions apart from Jesus Christ.

AMR

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