drbrumley
Well-known member
All true.....just keep on proving my point....
Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."
- Thread starter KingdomRose
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All true.....just keep on proving my point....
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
lain:
I cannot believe you are asking this.
There are two seats, God is the center and Jesus is right hand side.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Oh, almost forgot....
Isaiah 43:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*
I, I am Yahweh,
and there is no other Savior but Me.
vs.
Titus 2:13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13*while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 43:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*
I, I am Yahweh,
and there is no other Savior but Me.
vs.
Titus 2:13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13*while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets look at the truth contextually speaking.....again.......
Lets look at the truth contextually speaking.....again.......
Does it need figuring? - yes....'God' who is infinite Spirit, operates thru and within 'figures', 'shapes', 'forms'.
The truth I shared stands,...'God' the Father of all is NOT a 'lamb'. It was a metaphysical proposition for you to consider, since 'God' is incorporeal, but manifests, expresses, or reveals himself thru different forms and personalities, in this case, the 'Lamb' is of 'God' of course, and the agent of 'God'. We would also NOTE that in almost every instance the Lamb is always a distinct entity from 'God', even though they BOTH share the same THRONE (Authority/Power-Seat) of the Father. (remember the Son conquered and inherited his Father's throne).
The Father and the Son are ONE VOICE....One 'Elohim'. We've been over this in former disserations. The passages in Revelation always show the Lord God Almighty AND the Lamb, as being distinct entities, although of course they are 'One God'. 'God' remains forever echad. The 'Lamb' is his special office, role, function is 'elohim' and is but another type or figure of the Messiah, God's Son, the saving, redeeming, ruling, figure....in God's SERVICE. Since the Lamb represents 'God', and is his AGENT,...the Lamb is 'elohim'....and inherits and takes on the NAME of his 'God'. - so God and his Servant-SON both bear the signet name or titles, being 'Alpha & Omega', 'Beginning and End', 'First and Last'.
There is no problem in understanding these in a Unitarian context. None whatsoever.
Lets look at the truth contextually speaking.....again.......
Does it need figuring? - yes....'God' who is infinite Spirit, operates thru and within 'figures', 'shapes', 'forms'.
The truth I shared stands,...'God' the Father of all is NOT a 'lamb'. It was a metaphysical proposition for you to consider, since 'God' is incorporeal, but manifests, expresses, or reveals himself thru different forms and personalities, in this case, the 'Lamb' is of 'God' of course, and the agent of 'God'. We would also NOTE that in almost every instance the Lamb is always a distinct entity from 'God', even though they BOTH share the same THRONE (Authority/Power-Seat) of the Father. (remember the Son conquered and inherited his Father's throne).
The Father and the Son are ONE VOICE....One 'Elohim'. We've been over this in former disserations. The passages in Revelation always show the Lord God Almighty AND the Lamb, as being distinct entities, although of course they are 'One God'. 'God' remains forever echad. The 'Lamb' is his special office, role, function is 'elohim' and is but another type or figure of the Messiah, God's Son, the saving, redeeming, ruling, figure....in God's SERVICE. Since the Lamb represents 'God', and is his AGENT,...the Lamb is 'elohim'....and inherits and takes on the NAME of his 'God'. - so God and his Servant-SON both bear the signet name or titles, being 'Alpha & Omega', 'Beginning and End', 'First and Last'.
There is no problem in understanding these in a Unitarian context. None whatsoever.
drbrumley
Well-known member
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
'God' is Sole Savior,...there is no other Savior.. 'God' uses his anointed AGENT in his work of salvation, the Savior-Messiah, who represents 'God'. Not a problem at all, within a Unitarian context. No need to try to make Jesus fit into an orthodox definition of a Trinity here.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Ah, but that is not what it says now is it?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If two distinct entities share the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" then why is there only ONE on the throne and that ONE is God?:
"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).
KingdomRose
New member
You have been shown that your version of Philippians 2:6 is not a relevant version, as MANY MODERN VERSIONS render that verse as : "Although he was like God in nature, he never even considered seizing the chance to be equal with God." (21st Century New Testament)
Being in the form of God simply means that Jesus is SPIRIT, just as God is Spirit (John 4:24). Nothing more than that. Everything else you say is your speculation and imagination.
KingdomRose
New member
The Ancient of Days, JEHOVAH, will never be on the earth, as Solomon indicated millennia ago (I Kings 8:27). And when Jesus finishes his work as the King over the Earth, "he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet....When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)
Explain that, Jerry. I won't hold my breath....you usually don't answer me.
Show me a single New Testament text that proves your contention that YHWH is only the Father? Also, what is "the Greek" for "the Lord" in John 21:7 (KJV) and in Mark 12:29-30 (KJV) or Matthew 22:37 (KJV)?
That is along the same lines as the faulty John 10:30 argument:
Revelation 3:21 ASV
21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.
By default you are making yourself out to be equal to the Almighty, (if and when you overcome), at the same time you argue what you posted above. That is the giant problem with making the one who was not ashamed to call us brethren into Elohim Almighty. Those who overcome will sit with Yeshua in his throne, just as he sat down with his Father in His throne. If your argument is true, and your reasoning makes Yeshua equal to Elohim Almighty, then it also makes those who overcome equal to Yeshua and equal to Elohim Almighty. Yeshua was not ashamed to call us brethren according to the scripture: you are not the brother of our heavenly Father.
KingdomRose
New member
Your smugness in the face of overwhelming refutation to your erroneous ideas is astounding and would be almost amusing if it weren't so pathetic. I would take Holman's Christian Standard Bible off my shelf if I were you. He's got Titus 2:13 as saying something misleading. Many Bible committees have seen that this verse includes TWO Persons---God AND our Savior, Jesus Christ. When you move the comma somewhere else, you get an entirely different meaning, and there were NO COMMAS IN GREEK. So Titus 2:13 really says: "while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God AND Savior Jesus Christ."
To call Jesus the Savior doesn't mean that he is the same as God (Jehovah). Jesus is THE MEANS BY WHICH Jehovah saves, therefore, BOTH can hold the title of "Savior," though Jehovah is the SOURCE of salvation because it is He who sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world.
So if you bothered to read this, you can see where your error lies.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Jesus' God is God.:salute:
The KJV reads from the Textus Receptus but the W/H is the same in these instances as far as concerning what you ask:
John 21:7 W/H
7 λεγει ουν ο μαθητης εκεινος ον ηγαπα ο ιησους τω πετρω ο κυριος εστιν σιμων ουν πετρος ακουσας οτι ο κυριος εστιν τον επενδυτην διεζωσατο ην γαρ γυμνος και εβαλεν εαυτον εις την θαλασσαν
ο κυριος (with the article) = "the Master"
Mark 12:29-30 W/H
29 απεκριθη ο ιησους οτι πρωτη εστιν ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
30 και αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εξ ολης της καρδιας σου και εξ ολης της ψυχης σου και εξ ολης της διανοιας σου και εξ ολης της ισχυος σου
κυριος (without the article) = YHWH
κυριος ο θεος ημων = YHWH our Elohim
κυριον τον θεον σου = YHWH your Elohim
Matthew 22:37 W/H
37 ο δε εφη αυτω αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εν ολη [τη] καρδια σου και εν ολη τη ψυχη σου και εν ολη τη διανοια σου
κυριον τον θεον σου = YHWH your Elohim
Throughout the Gospel accounts we find this to be the case, that whenever the Tetragrammaton is intended the replacement word Kurios and its forms do not have the article because the authors of the Gospel accounts are following the precedent laid out for them in the Septuagint which they most often quote. This practice was carried over from the Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint because Hebrew does not tolerate an article with proper nouns, (names). Thus most of the time when you read and-or compare the Septuagint with the Hebrew text you will find that wherever the Tetragrammaton has been replaced with Kurios and its forms there is no article attached. This practice begins immediately in the very first chapter of Matthew where it is clear that the Malak-Angelos which appears to Yosef is a/the Malak of YHWH:
Matthew 1:20 W/H
20 ταυτα δε αυτου ενθυμηθεντος ιδου αγγελος κυριου κατ οναρ εφανη αυτω λεγων ιωσηφ υιος δαυιδ μη φοβηθης παραλαβειν μαριαν την γυναικα σου το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ πνευματος εστιν αγιου
αγγελος κυριου (anarthrous / no article) = [an] Angel of YHWH.
Then, in the next passage which makes mention of the angel again, we read "the angel" with the article; but Kurios is still written without an article because it is the replacement word for the Tetragrammaton and the Name of the Father:
Matthew 1:24 W/H
24 εγερθεις δε [ο] ιωσηφ απο του υπνου εποιησεν ως προσεταξεν αυτω ο αγγελος κυριου και παρελαβεν την γυναικα αυτου
ο αγγελος κυριου = the Angel of YHWH
What this means is that whenever you see an article with Kurios in the Gospel accounts, (i.e. "ο κυριος" and the other case forms included), it is "the Master" and not the replacement word for the Tetragrammaton, (YHWH), and is not being intended to be read as the Name of the Father. When you see it without an article it is most of the time the replacement word for the Name of the Father because of how the same practice was first laid out in the Septuagint. The Shema passages you quoted from Matthew and Mark are right there in both the Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint showing that what I have said is true.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
1 Kings 8:27 is speaking about the omnipresent God. The Lord Jesus was in the form of God until He put ona flesh and blood body. When the following prophecy will be fulfilled His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives:
"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD (JHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:1-4).
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