Shasta
Well-known member
Romans 9 is about how God uses nations and peoples to work out His redemptive plan. It is not about matters pertaining to individual salvation.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Romans 9 is about how God uses nations and peoples to work out His redemptive plan. It is not about matters pertaining to individual salvation.
They would say my density has popped me to you.
So, when you get to heaven and someone asks why are you here? You'll say. I had no choice but to love God. :freak:
beloved57
Well-known member
Christ Sheep are His before they hear His voice Jn 10:16. So your point is mute!
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beloved57
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Shasta
Well-known member
The word is "moot" not "mute." Do you stand by your original contention that Jesus was saying His sheep would hear Him in the FUTURE or have you accepted that He was speaking only about what was going on at the time: "my sheep ARE HEARING my voice (in the PRESENT)."
beloved57
Well-known member
Ok moot then !Christ has Sheep in His Possession before they hear and believe !
Lon
Well-known member
:doh: We are ALL born goats. The miracle is that the work of the Lord Jesus Christ makes sheep out of some of us. Think! :think:
Shasta
Well-known member
This is the same as saying a person can be saved without believing the gospel. I do not think your fellow Calvinists would agree with you on this point.
Shasta
Well-known member
What makes a person a sheep is that they hear the Shepherd's voice but not JUST that. The Lord had many hearers. A true sheep has to follow after Him. Anyone who does not do these things is not a sheep. They are just a wild donkey who neither understands nor cares about what the Master is saying. They are also too stubborn to follow when He calls.
Oh yes, do you stand by your original contention that Jesus was saying His sheep would hear Him in the FUTURE or have you accepted that He was speaking only about what was going on at the time: "my sheep ARE HEARING my voice (in the PRESENT)."
beloved57
Well-known member
More unbelief ! Those Christ died for are made Righteous by His Obedience Rom 5:19
beloved57
Well-known member
Lying. Christ had Sheep before they heard His Voice ! Jn 10:16
[FONT="]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.[/FONT]
beloved57
Well-known member
Shasta
Well-known member
Jesus said His sheep know His voice yet when the Voice of the Lord Jesus called to Paul by name on the Road to Damascus Paul had no idea Who He was. He had to ask "Lord who are you?" That was when he got the stunning revelation: "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting." Of course he knew who Jesus of Nazareth was but he did not know the divine identity of Jesus, that is, he did not know the REAL Jesus at all. Therefore it would be improper to say Paul was a sheep.
Sheep of the Lord Jesus alsofollow Him. In no way could it be said that Paul followed Jesus. He no more followed Him than the High Priest Caiaphus who had conspired to have Him crucified. In fact, on orders from Rome and Caiaphus Paul went out to persecute Christ's body. He was even complicit in the death of Stephen.
The Bible never uses the term "dysfunctional" to describe people, a term which comes from modern psychology. In scriptural terms a person's habitual pattern of behavior defines their motives and their identity (Matthew 7:15-20, Matthew 15:19). ALL people of the world are "confused" in the sense that they do not understand the truth. The same could also be said for Caiaphus and all the other enemies of the cross. Paul too was an enemy because he sought the same ends as they did. The difference came after he encountered Jesus and was radically transformed. Then he became an entirely different species: from goat to sheep. In the Kingdom such miracles of re-birth can and do happen. Saying that we merely need to be made "functional" denies the need for the new birth.
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Shasta
Well-known member
The Lord knows what a person's response to the gospel will be but no one is a believer until they respond to the gospel, that is, until they hear the truth, understand it, believe in Christ, and trust in Him to save them.. It appears you do not even believe people have to believe the gospel to be saved. That is amazing since that is what the Apostles believed and taught. Of course, if people are already "believers before they believe" then there is no need for a new birth or any kind of radical conversion from one state to another. It is worth noting that this unscriptural and irrational teaching is not shared by many of your fellow Calvinists. Luther and even John Calvin himself had "conversion experiences."
Shasta
Well-known member
The blood of Christ in your belief system is NOT of infinite worth. It is worth only enough to erase the debts of a small minority of mankind.
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't know one thing about the Christ I serve and Worship!
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beloved57
Well-known member
Your comment is moot again, Christ possessed His Sheep before they hear and believe Jn 10:16!
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Shasta
Well-known member
Let's look at this scripture more closely
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
The verb for were made is in the past tense because it refers to a one-time past event (the Fall) that has affected all mankind (by imparting spiritual death).
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
The verb for shall be made is in the future tense indicating that everyone who will be made righteous in the future has not yet been made righteous. Of the total number of people born to Adam some, but not all, will be made righteous at some point in the future. Until then, they are not righteous.
Righteousness means being in "right standing" with God. No one is in "right standing" with Him until they hear the gospel, understand it, believe it and submit to it. This is the way people are saved. It is what the Apostles taught and preached. "By grace are you saved through faith." You have people already being saved before they even hear the gospel.
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Shasta
Well-known member
Sheep are people who respond to the Shepherd's call. No one is a sheep until they behave as a sheep: listening to Him, knowing His voice, following after Him. These characteristics define people as being sheep. Sheep are, so to speak, "gospel responders." Wolves, on the other hand, are defined by the fact that they eat sheep rather than grass and by the fact that they hate and fear the Shepherd.
The text does not say Christ possessed anyone before they hear and believe.