The Trinity

The Trinity


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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The Jewish assembly?

Why do you say it was for the Jewish assembly?

Let us look at this verse:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).​

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity"
[emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).​

According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."

Next, let us look at the events here which were in regard to the ekklesia of Acts 2:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"
(Acts 2:16-17).​

The following prophecy was totally in regard to the religious unity of Israel and Israel alone:

"Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation (ekklesia) , assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts...And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" (Joel 2:16,27-28).​

So the ekklesia mentioned at Acts 2:47 is referring to Israel in her religious unity and it is not referring to the Body of Christ.
 
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DavidK

New member
Spoiler
There the Father spoken of is in regard to the "us" and "our" found in this passage:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

Next, let us look at this verse:

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him"
(1 Cor.8:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Albert Barnes says:

"One God, the Father - Whom we acknowledge as the Father of all; Author of all things; and who sustains to all his works the relation of a father. The word 'Father' here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction - the Father as distinguished from his offspring, the works that owe their origin to him" (Barnes'Notes on the Bible, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 8:6).​

The following verse speaks of the Father as the Creator of Mankind:

"But now, O LORD (JWHW), thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isa.64:8).​

Here we read that JHWH is our Father and He is the Potter who created mankind. The Apostle Paul said that it is by the Lord Jesus that all things are created:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

Since the Lord Jesus created all things then it is obvious that He is the Potter, JWHW the Father. That explains the Lord Jesus' words here:

"I and my Father are one"
(Jn.10:30).​

The only reason that the Lord Jesus could say the following is because He is indeed JHWH the Father:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (Jn.14:9).​

All this explains what we read here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Everlasting Father is the Mighty God, and the Mighty God is JHWH, as witnessed by what is said here:

" Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD (JHWH) of hosts, is his name"
(Jer.32:18).​

Okay, I think I get that you're saying the same person, acting in different capacities. But that doesn't answer my question.

When we read about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit interacting with each other, is it just a show for our sake?

When Jesus prays to the Father, He's not really talking to anyone, He's just putting on an act to show how we should address Him in His Fatherly role?

And when the voice declares Jesus to be His Son, in whom He is well pleased, that's a spiritual ventriloquist's act?

And the Spirit descending with a likeness as a dove... spiritual puppet show?
 

God's Truth

New member
In the context of posting up a definition of the word translated "Lord", I'd expect it does. Why post a definition if accuracy isn't an issue?

No one knows exactly how God's name is pronounced.

I personally do not believe God's name is pronounced Jehovah.

So why does it matter?
 

God's Truth

New member
There the Father spoken of is in regard to the "us" and "our" found in this passage:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

Next, let us look at this verse:

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him"
(1 Cor.8:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Albert Barnes says:

"One God, the Father - Whom we acknowledge as the Father of all; Author of all things; and who sustains to all his works the relation of a father. The word 'Father' here is not used as applicable to the first person of the Trinity, as distinguished from the second, but is applied to God as God; not as the Father in contradistinction from the Son, but to the divine nature as such, without reference to that distinction - the Father as distinguished from his offspring, the works that owe their origin to him" (Barnes'Notes on the Bible, Commentary at 1 Corinthians 8:6).​

The following verse speaks of the Father as the Creator of Mankind:

"But now, O LORD (JWHW), thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isa.64:8).​

Here we read that JHWH is our Father and He is the Potter who created mankind. The Apostle Paul said that it is by the Lord Jesus that all things are created:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church" (Col.1:16-18).​

Since the Lord Jesus created all things then it is obvious that He is the Potter, JWHW the Father. That explains the Lord Jesus' words here:

"I and my Father are one"
(Jn.10:30).​

The only reason that the Lord Jesus could say the following is because He is indeed JHWH the Father:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (Jn.14:9).​

All this explains what we read here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Everlasting Father is the Mighty God, and the Mighty God is JHWH, as witnessed by what is said here:

" Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD (JHWH) of hosts, is his name"
(Jer.32:18).​

What?! So you believe that Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh?

I am so glad to meet another that believes the truth.
 

God's Truth

New member
Let us look at this verse:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia) daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).​

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity"
[emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).​

According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."

Next, let us look at the events here which were in regard to the ekklesia of Acts 2:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"
(Acts 2:16-17).​

The following prophecy was totally in regard to the religious unity of Israel and Israel alone:

"Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation (ekklesia) , assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts...And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" (Joel 2:16,27-28).​

So the ekklesia mentioned at Acts 2:47 is referring to Israel in her religious unity and it is not referring to the Body of Christ.

No.

The body of Christ is the church.

Jesus spoke of coming IN his body when he walked the earth, and Jesus spoke of the church when he walked the earth.
 

DavidK

New member
What don't you get about there being three.

I have no problem with there being three. I don't understand if there aren't three.

Do you really believe that Jesus is God?

Yes or no.

Yes.

Jesus IS God, and since Jesus is God, then he must also be the Father because there is only one God.

Three persons, one being.
God the Father did not pretend to come as a Man, He really did come as a Man.

God the Father did not come as a man. God the Son came as a man. The Father sent Him.

Jesus said he knows that the Father ALWAYS hears him, but that he spoke aloud for the sake of those listening.

John 11:42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

I have no idea why you think this means They are one person. The Father always hears me as well, but I do not claim to be the Father.
 

JudgeRightly

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No.

The body of Christ is the church.

Jesus spoke of coming IN his body when he walked the earth, and Jesus spoke of the church when he walked the earth.
The "church" can mean one of two things:

The Jews who became christians, part of the Nation of Israel, and the Gentile believers.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No.

The body of Christ is the church.

Jesus spoke of coming IN his body when he walked the earth, and Jesus spoke of the church when he walked the earth.

Yes, the Jewish assembly. You gave no evidence from the Scriptures to back up your claim. And worse than that you ignored the evidence that the things of which Peter spoke on the day of Pentecost was in regard to the prophecy found in the book of Joel with its setting centered around the Jewish congregation.
 

God's Truth

New member

Since you believe that Jesus is God, then you must also believe that Jesus is the Father, because there is only one Father and He is God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father

Three persons, one being.

Are you going by the trinity doctrine which says the three persons are different and separate? If that is what you are saying then you are wrong because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not different and separate, ever.

God the Father did not come as a man. God the Son came as a man. The Father sent Him.
The Son IS God the Father come in the flesh. Remember, there is only ONE Spirit.
Remember, God the Father created everything…Jesus created everything.
I have no idea why you think this means They are one person. The Father always hears me as well, but I do not claim to be the Father.

You are not Jesus either. Do you think you are Jesus? Do you think you are Jesus since God hears you? So then, your blood does what for the world’s sin? How is it that I am speaking of Jesus and it turns to you?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The "church" can mean one of two things:

The Jews who became christians, part of the Nation of Israel, and the Gentile believers.

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity"
[emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).​

According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes, the Jewish assembly. You gave no evidence from the Scriptures to back up your claim. And worse than that you ignored the evidence that the things of which Peter spoke on the day of Pentecost was in regard to the prophecy found in the book of Joel with its setting centered around the Jewish congregation.

I have scriptures for everything that I believe.

I ignore no scriptures.

Make yourself more clear, and that is not going to happen when you speak in an insulting way.

There is only one Israel and it does NOT matter to whom one is blood related to Abraham.

Jesus spoke of the church when he walked the earth, and he spoke of coming into his body.
 

God's Truth

New member
The Greek word translated "church" is ekklesia and that word can be found in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the LXX). Alfred Edersheim, a Jewish convert to Christianity and a respected Bible scholar, wrote the following:

"Nor would the term 'Church' sound strange in Jewish ears. The same Greek word (ekklesia), as the equivalent of the Hebrew 'Qahal,' 'convocation,' 'the called,' occurs in the LXX. rendering of the Old Testament, and in 'the Wisdom of the Son of Sirach' and was apparently in familiar use at that time. In Hebrew use it referred to Israel, not in their national but in their religious unity"
[emphasis added] (Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah [Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. M. Eerdmans Publishing 1971] Book 3, Chapter 37, p.84).​

According to Edersheim the Greek word translated "church" was in familiar use and "it referred to Israel...in their religious unity."

Who cares about that man you keep bring up?

Go by the scriptures.

The scriptures tell us that God does not go by to whom one is blood related anymore.

The scriptures say that we are all Israel by faith.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The scriptures say that we are all Israel by faith.

Which Scriptures?

The scriptures tell us that God does not go by to whom one is blood related anymore.

Who is Paul referring to here?:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins"
(Ro.11:25-27).​
 

God's Truth

New member
Which Scriptures?

I am glad you asked.

Since Jesus Christ and his appearing, it no longer matters to whom we are blood related, it only matters now if we come to God by the blood of Jesus Christ:

See John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Did you read how the scripture says 'not of natural descent'?

Natural decent is about those to whom we are blood related.

Jesus' blood is the only blood that matters, not Abraham's.

The written Word of God says NOT of natural descent. That means it does not matter if someone is blood related to Abraham.

See how the scripture says not of human decision?

That is about a husband not being able to have his wife become a Jew, or even a Christian, by converting her with certain rituals.

In the past, a Jew could marry and she performs the practices of Judaism, and so become a Jew and a child of God...this is no more now since Jesus.

Being born of God is how we are now saved. We are born of God by receiving the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit by asking Jesus to save us, after we repent of our sins and call on him. When Jesus saves us and gives us his Holy Spirit that is when we are born again.
 

God's Truth

New member
Which Scriptures?

Who is Paul referring to here?:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins"
(Ro.11:25-27).​

Israel is all those who come to Jesus by living faith no matter what nationality and ethnicity they are.

It must have seemed as if all Jews were cut off, hardened, and blinded by God forever, and that an ethnicity of people was permanently disallowed from ever being saved again.

However, Paul assures the listener that all Israel will be saved...that is, any potential believer from the nation of Israel are not being kept out by God and not allowed to be grafted back in to true Israel and thus being saved...that any Jew who would believe in Jesus---can do so, so that all Israel, true Israel will be saved; for leaving out a race of people would leave out those who make up together true Israel.

Certainly, all Israel being saved is not about every single Jew is going to be saved.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I am glad you asked.

Since Jesus Christ and his appearing, it no longer matters to whom we are blood related, it only matters now if we come to God by the blood of Jesus Christ:

See John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

That is referring to the Jews and the words "not of natural descent" refers to the truth that they were not made children of God that way but instead born of God.

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"
(Jn.1:11-13).​

The scriptures tell us that God does not go by to whom one is blood related anymore.

Who is Paul referring to here?:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​
 

God's Truth

New member
That is referring to the Jews and the words "not of natural descent" refers to "how" they were not born of God:

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God"
(Jn.1:11-13).​

Again, not of natural decent is about people not having to be blood related to Abraham in order to be saved.

Who is Paul referring to here?:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).​

Again, Israel is all those who come to Jesus by living faith no matter what nationality and ethnicity they are.

It must have seemed as if all Jews were cut off, hardened, and blinded by God forever, and that an ethnicity of people was permanently disallowed from ever being saved again.

However, Paul assures the listener that all Israel will be saved...that is, any potential believer from the nation of Israel are not being kept out by God and not allowed to be grafted back in to true Israel and thus being saved...that any Jew who would believe in Jesus---can do so, so that all Israel, true Israel will be saved; for leaving out a race of people would leave out those who make up together true Israel.

Certainly, all Israel being saved is not about every single Jew is going to be saved.
 
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