Salvation Through Mary?

jsanford108 said:

The changes of Vatican 2 were with practices. Not teachings or dogmas.

What does "pray" mean?

Click to expand...

It is not true what you say about the second vatican. The second vatican made changes that affect the infallibility of the popes and the Catholic denomination.

Praying to someone is something the Catholics do to Mary, whom is not Divine and cannot hear everyone's prayers.

The Bible never ever speaks of any super-naturalness ability of Mary.

I can give you an answer to why I pray to Mary. But first, may I ask you to define "pray?"

jsanford108 said:

I can give you an answer to why I pray to Mary. But first, may I ask you to define "pray?"

Click to expand...

What do you think it means?

No matter what you claim it means, you do it and it is wrong when you do it to Mary.

God's Truth said:

It is not true what you say about the second vatican. The second vatican made changes that affect the infallibility of the popes and the Catholic denomination.

Praying to someone is something the Catholics do to Mary, whom is not Divine and cannot hear everyone's prayers.

The Bible never ever speaks of any super-naturalness ability of Mary.

Click to expand...

Vatican 2 make declarations on papal infallibility. That wasn't a new idea though. If you read the documents of Vatican 2, any decree, such as papal infallibility, lists sources that demonstrated and taught these things, prior to Vatican 2. It was a belief that existed long before those at Vatican 2 were even alive.

And for a Biblical example of Mary having "supernaturalness," granted, I don't think she has any so I am hoping you mean some form of extra spiritual gifts, read Luke. The angel greeted her with "Hail, full of grace." As I posted a day or so ago, this is the only occurance in the history of the world, that such a person was greeted this way, or even recieved such special grace from God. This is even more evident in her conception of Christ. Is this supernatural? By technical definition, yes. By the connotation of "God-like abilities," then of course not.

Pray, from the Latin word, precari, mean to "beg or ask," according to the Latin dictionary.

How is this wrong? Do you ask a family member to "pray" for you? Because if so, then by your own words, this is wrong. Can you adequately explain how praying to Mary, taking my petitions to her, is wrong? Just saying it is wrong does not make it true. (otherwise, I could just say that "you are wrong," and now it is true. See my point?)

jsanford108 said:

Dear friend,
You aren't even believing in the eternal soul, nor Christ Himself.

When Christ looked to the thief, and says "Today you will dine with me in paradise," was Christ lying? If you refer to an earlier post of mine, I point out how the crucifixion is the pinnacle of creation itself. Christ spoke seven times. Wouldn't it make sense for these moments to be of divine importance? So why would Christ just say something to a thief for no reason? Or something that wasn't true?

As far as the eternal soul, many times throughout the Bible, when a person died, they immediately went to heaven, or hell. Christ mentions it in several parables and sometimes hair straight up says it. The epistles are also full of references. By saying a person is dead just waiting for a wake up is contradictory to Scripture and the teachings contained therein.

Click to expand...

Yahushua died that day Friday was buried rested the Sabbath day...rose...appeared to Mary told her He had not yet ascended to His Father. So if He died and dined that same Friday with the thief maybe He lied to Mary? Or did He have to come back after eating with the thief up there and then go back again after He resurrected?

Some insist He went to hell but nothing is claimed about His going to heaven while dead...maybe He lied to the theif and ate with Him in hell?

Do those times in the bible mentioning people go immediately after death include poor Lazarus?

Please note two things in this story...not parable...

John 11: 11These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

So there already Lazarus isn't anywhere but dead sleeping...

And now Martha even warns Yahushua that it's been four days and the corpse would be stinking...

Maybe that is why Yahushua delayed His trip to answer your question?

FOUR DAYS after Lazarus dies he comes out...

Now exactly where was Lazarus? Hell? Why didn't Yahushua hurry the hell up? Lol...

Paradise already? Why didn't Yahushua tarry a day longer?

Where is the gospel of Lazarus? Where is his account of either Hell or Heaven? Even Purgatory..."So there I was beginning my refining fire procedure, eager to be on my way up...when I get the notice that nevermind! I gotta go back...sigh"

Or maybe the gospel of Lazarus in its entirety was "ummm...well I don't remember anything...but then I heard Him and then I saw Him again...HalleluYah" And being just one sheet of parchment it lies forgotten or lost in those secret vaults in the Vatican somewhere?

What happened on the cross is already a miracle enough and can still bring many more home...to heaven...without the dead immediately dining....

jsanford108 said:

Vatican 2 make declarations on papal infallibility. That wasn't a new idea though. If you read the documents of Vatican 2, any decree, such as papal infallibility, lists sources that demonstrated and taught these things, prior to Vatican 2. It was a belief that existed long before those at Vatican 2 were even alive.

And for a Biblical example of Mary having "supernaturalness," granted, I don't think she has any so I am hoping you mean some form of extra spiritual gifts, read Luke. The angel greeted her with "Hail, full of grace." As I posted a day or so ago, this is the only occurance in the history of the world, that such a person was greeted this way, or even recieved such special grace from God. This is even more evident in her conception of Christ. Is this supernatural? By technical definition, yes. By the connotation of "God-like abilities," then of course not.

Click to expand...

You claim Mary doesn't have supernatural powers but you think all can pray to her and she could hear all our prayers. lol

jsanford108 said:

I meant "he," not "hair." My apologies.

Click to expand...

"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will not need to apologize or need to post another post to edit."

"Assuredly, I say to you today, you will not need to apologize or need to post another post to edit."

Hint:

NT Greek didn't have punctuation points but did have translators who were wolves in sheep clothing...

jsanford108 said:

While the quote provided by Jerry is an accurate quote, and one which I agree with, it does not give Mary the tittle of Co-redeemer, or Savior, in any form.

Click to expand...

Greetings jsanford,

Please consider what is written here:


That cannot be correct since a person's redemption is based entirely on the death of the Lord Jesus:

The claim that Mary can hear prayers is not supernatural. Can the Angels hear our prayers? More importantly, can Christ hear our prayers? Because if so, then so can Mary. For after death, we are united with Him. To deny this is to deny what Christ has said.

So Clefty, what happens after death?

Christ opened the doors of heaven. And when He rose, "the graves were opened." To say that te dead still awake Heaven or Hell goes against this Scripture. I do not claim to know what Christ did for three days. But I also don't believe Him to be a liar, as it seems your position must be, since you deny the eternal nature of the soul, and Christ's own words.

Dearest Jerry,

I think you once again, bring the best points and evidence. If I may charge you with taking the quote from Inter Sodalicia as a whole. It says that she "sacrificed her Son," thereby redeeming with Christ the human race. Without her sacrifice, humanity could not be redeemed. This does not make her a co-redeemer though. Contribution in an event does not mean that you are the event, nor the fulcrum. For example, I can drive you to the mall. You go shopping, while I wait in the car. I did not go shopping. But we went to the mall. I enabled you to shop. I contributed, but I was not the celebrant.

I know this analogy isn't the best, but it shows how phrasing can be meant, yet how easily it is to be twisted in connotations by a polarized audience. (Not trying to make you sound negative by any capacity; for I would classify myself in that position with doctrines held by various Christian denominations)

jsanford108 said:

The claim that Mary can hear prayers is not supernatural. Can the Angels hear our prayers? More importantly, can Christ hear our prayers? Because if so, then so can Mary. For after death, we are united with Him. To deny this is to deny what Christ has said.

Click to expand...

Who did Jesus tell us to pray to?... The father. I pray to the father through our lord Jesus Christ. Everything should be done through Jesus, not Mary.

We are not to pray to Mary. Nowhere does it tell us to do this in the Bible.

When Jesus did his first miracle, Mary told those at the wedding feast to do what Jesus said. She had no authority over Jesus whatsoever. She is not the mother of God, she is the mother of Jesus Christ in the flesh.

jsanford108 said:

So Clefty, what happens after death?

Christ opened the doors of heaven. And when He rose, "the graves were opened." To say that te dead still awake Heaven or Hell goes against this Scripture. I do not claim to know what Christ did for three days. But I also don't believe Him to be a liar, as it seems your position must be, since you deny the eternal nature of the soul, and Christ's own words.

Click to expand...

Can you see the spiritual meaning in what you have just said? Especially in the first sentence?

I'm just wondering if you can?

And what do you mean by the dead still awake heaven or hell? Thanks

jsanford108 said:

The claim that Mary can hear prayers is not supernatural. Can the Angels hear our prayers? More importantly, can Christ hear our prayers? Because if so, then so can Mary. For after death, we are united with Him. To deny this is to deny what Christ has said.

Click to expand...

Jesus can hear all our prayers because he is God.

How do you get that Mary can hear millions and millions of prayers at once?

jsanford108 said:

So Clefty, what happens after death?

Click to expand...

Answered already in the story of Lazarus. Yahushua said He sleeps. The disciples thought it was good so he would be getting well. But then notice Yahushua clarifies with "He is dead." Just like when the disciples remained puzzled about His saying eat My body...He clarified that too..."flesh profits nothing"...it is the Spirit that is life the words He speaks are the spirit the life...of course some insist on miraculous literal transformations of bread to flesh and such despite clear teaching flesh profits nothing...

Here too with the Lazarus story...flesh profits nothing...Yahushua actually allows Lazarus to die in order to prove it is the SPIRIT OF HIS WORDS...

He spoke to Lazarus who was dead...sleeping as He put it...and out came Lazarus...even after FOUR DAYS...

See? The flesh profits NOTHING...it stinks and turns to dust and the spirit returns to the One who gave it and comes back when instructed to enter again the dust...

Now all joking aside if Lazarus had any recollection about anywhere he might have gone or anything he might have experienced don't you think it would have been note worthy?

Don't you think the Church would benefit from his depictions of going to either heaven or hell or even purgatory...why is there not one verse about his testimony while dead? OR ANY OF THE ONES RAISED IN SCRIPTURE...

If he went to heaven...imagine the comfort and joy the motivation he could instil until this day to get people to be good and do right...the Church would merely need to make a holiday and have it read to the desirous masses wishing for the promise of joys to come...

If he went to hell...imagine the testimony of terror and horror and grief which would inspire millions to do anything to avoid hell...the Churchcould certainly used the gospel of Lazarus as propaganda to prove its teaching on hell and make many more coins in coffers ring causing souls to spring...

Purgatory too...the Church certainly could benefit from any reinforcement on this deceptive dogma...

but on all three possible destinations THERE IS NOTHING...

FOUR DAYS...that is a long time and much could have happened if anything happens at all...but NOTHING...because well as Yahushua said...he was ASLEEP...not even a dream...

No account of even being a soul/spirit hovering or floating or being aware...watching his sisters mourn or pleading for water of them...

Imagine how he would have felt looking down...seeing that...and then seeing them possibly fall...


Imagine how he felt hearing that His savior cried for Him? How He loved that man...

NOW THINK: He WEPT...why?...they were friends yes? Lazarus was loved by Him...odds are Lazarus went to heaven not hell yes? So if He knew that Lazarus was in Heaven why would He bring Him back?...or more so why would He cry knowing he was in a good place...or even more so knowing He could bring Him back?

He did more than shed a tear...He WEPT...because death separates...Lazarus was no more...no communication...no "there he is!" "I see him!" In heaven or hell...purgatory...but GONE TO NOWHERE NO WHERE to be found...mortality does that...it ENDS life...no further story of being in paradise or hell...FIN


Even the theif on the cross still sleeps but just as as it was promised that day, he will dine when the time comes...probably breakfast or at least brunch...you know wake up food...sans bacon...sorry...

Christ opened the doors of heaven. And when He rose, "the graves were opened." To say that te dead still awake Heaven or Hell goes against this Scripture. I do not claim to know what Christ did for three days. But I also don't believe Him to be a liar, as it seems your position must be, since you deny the eternal nature of the soul, and Christ's own words.

Click to expand...

Yes many were resurrected with Him but again nothing from them...not one description of where or what happens after death...

Info the Church could certainly use...

He certainly didn't lie...translator did with their punctuation "assuredly I say to you today, you will dine with me in Heaven..."

Nothing from even Yahushua describing what He did or where He went that Sabbath He kept resting in the tomb before rising healed and refreshed ready for the following day's festival of first fruit.

We die...body to dust...our spirit/soul returns to Our maker and is returned into our glorified bodies...or not and we are separated FOREVER from Him who loved us gave us everything and did so much to get us back...that is Hell...

Ever wonder why Christ is returning if we all go to heaven when we die???????

I bet most don't.

jsanford108 said:

I think you once again, bring the best points and evidence. If I may charge you with taking the quote from Inter Sodalicia as a whole. It says that she "sacrificed her Son," thereby redeeming with Christ the human race.

Click to expand...

Greetings jsanford,

I see no evidence in the Bible which states that Mary "sacrificed her Son." Could you please tell me where I can find that evidence?

Thanks!

keypurr said:

Ever wonder why Christ is returning if we all go to heaven when we die??????

Click to expand...

He will return to reign as King in His earthly Kingdom:

Jerry Shugart said:

He will return to reign as King in His earthly Kingdom:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).​

Click to expand...

OK, now answer the question why is he coming back if we go to heaven when we die? Logically there is no reason to return if we all go to heaven when we die.

We will all wait in our graves for his return, the dead know nothing.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app