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Thread: Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Hi kmoney,

    Let us look at the verse:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    I believe John is saying that if the Christian "confesses" (acknowledges) all of the sins of which he is aware then at that time he is cleansed from "all" unrighteousness.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Our opponents will rightly ask what happens if a believer does not confess these sins? How does this play out practically? Is there a difference between salvation and fellowship/intimacy?

    (I do not believe I will go to hell if I fall asleep forgetting to confess my gluttony).

    Am I the only believer that identifies with David's heart in Psalm 51 (I read it prayerfully at communion this morning)?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Rookie JCWR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    When a believer is filled with the Spirit, he is spiritual, and he walks in the light (I John 1:7); when a believer sins, he is carnal and walks in darkness (I John 1:6). These two "laws" are in constant conflict within every believer. For the execution of the Christian way of life, the law of spirituality must supersede the law of carnality.

    As long as there is no unconfessed sin in your life, you remain in temporal fellowship with God, and you are filled with the Spirit. However, at the moment you sin, you are carnal and under the control of the old sin nature. When you confess your sins, God forgives you immediately, He blots out your sins, and you are not only back in fellowship, but as of that moment for one second at least, you are filled with the Spirit.
    You need to re-read Galatians.

    Galatians 3:2-5: This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    The first question is basically rhetorical, for the answer is obvious--they received the righteousness of Christ and His Holy Spirit at the same time. The Spirit is the irrefutable evidence of the favor of God. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8:16). By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit (1 John 4:13).

    It is ridiculous to claim that the full gift of the Spirit comes through additional work or experience. A person who does not have the fullness of the Holy Spirit does not need a second blessing--he needs salvation! The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is inseparable from the new birth. At no time before salvation can the person have the indwelling Spirit, and at no time after salvation can he not have the Spirit. Our sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, is given as a pledge of our inheritance (see Ephesians 1:13-14). The word pledge is from arrabon, and originally referred to a down payment or earnest money given by someone intending to make a purchase, as a guarantee that the full amount would be paid. Today, we Greek speakers use the a modern form of the word to mean 'engagement ring'! The Holy Spirit is the believer's guarantee that as part of Christ's church, His bride, he will participate in the marriage feast of the Lamb.

    The Holy Spirit is not the goal of the believer's life, but is its source. The Spirit is not the product of faithful living but is the very power behind it. If you attempt to be justified by law, then you have rejected the way of grace. You cannot mix law and grace. To mix law with grace is to obliterate grace. This is what Paul meant in Galatians 5:4, where he contrasted the ways of grace and law (which, by the way, has absolutely nothing to do with the security of the believer).
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    Quote Originally Posted by student ad x View Post
    In dealing with the schism involved with the target audience are you seeing 1 John 1:5-10 thru 1 John 2:1-27 as two tests of fellowship with God? An ethical test 1 John 1:5-2:17 and a Christological test 1 John 2:18-27
    I don't see it this way. If I were to outline 1 John it would look something like this:

    I. The Way of Life: 1 John 1:1-10
    A. From the Beginning: 1 John 1:1-4
    B. God is Light: 1 John 1:5
    C. The Walk in the Light: 1 John 1:6-10
    II. The New Relationship: 1 John 2:1-29
    A. The Advocate: 1 John 2:1-6
    B. A New Commandment: 1 John 2:7-17
    C. Abide in Him: 1 John 2:18-29
    III. Truth and Love: 1 John 3:1-4:21
    A. See What Love: 1 John 3:1-18
    B. Test the Spirits: 1 John 3:19-4:6
    C. Love is an Event: 1 John 4:7-21
    IV. Discipleship: 1 John 5:1-21
    A. Not Burdensome: 1 John 5:1-12
    B. Keep Away from Idols: 1 John 5:13-21


    I just don't see the purpose of the letter to be a series of tests, but instead its purpose is to remind the reader of the true light of the world and that no special words, codes, mystical knowledge, etc. (all the trappings of the Gnostics), are necessary to walk in that light.

    1 John 5:11-12 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    John's letter is a testimony to the liberation the believer can realize. Like Screwtape correctly wrote to Wormwood, warning him about our God: When he talks of their losing their selves, he only means abandoning the clamour of self-will; once they have done that, He really gives them back all their personality, and boasts (I am afraid, sincerely) that when they are wholly His they will be more themselves than ever (Letter 13).
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Does your Bible have Psalm 32 and Psalm 51 with 2 Tim. 3:16?
    What is the matter with you?

    Why do you even care? You claim to not be willing to even have a one on one with anyone who thinks you are Godless, yet here you are trying to dialog with the very same persons you disavow. So make up your minds.
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    What is the matter with you?

    Why do you even care? You claim to not be willing to even have a one on one with anyone who thinks you are Godless, yet here you are trying to dialog with the very same persons you disavow. So make up your minds.
    A one on one is something I have never done, even with friends who support me. It is a different ball of wax than single posts.

    There are outsiders that benefit from seeing both sides. I participate if and when I want. The people who demand I answer them all of the time or brow beat me if I do not engage in long posts or one on ones tend not to stick around.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Preclude: to make impossible as by an action taken in advance.
    a little help for us who dont talk in obscure language.

  7. #67
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    You need to re-read Galatians.

    Galatians 3:2-5: This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    The first question is basically rhetorical, for the answer is obvious--they received the righteousness of Christ and His Holy Spirit at the same time. The Spirit is the irrefutable evidence of the favor of God. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8:16). By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit (1 John 4:13).

    It is ridiculous to claim that the full gift of the Spirit comes through additional work or experience. A person who does not have the fullness of the Holy Spirit does not need a second blessing--he needs salvation! The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is inseparable from the new birth. At no time before salvation can the person have the indwelling Spirit, and at no time after salvation can he not have the Spirit. Our sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, is given as a pledge of our inheritance (see Ephesians 1:13-14). The word pledge is from arrabon, and originally referred to a down payment or earnest money given by someone intending to make a purchase, as a guarantee that the full amount would be paid. Today, we Greek speakers use the a modern form of the word to mean 'engagement ring'! The Holy Spirit is the believer's guarantee that as part of Christ's church, His bride, he will participate in the marriage feast of the Lamb.

    The Holy Spirit is not the goal of the believer's life, but is its source. The Spirit is not the product of faithful living but is the very power behind it. If you attempt to be justified by law, then you have rejected the way of grace. You cannot mix law and grace. To mix law with grace is to obliterate grace. This is what Paul meant in Galatians 5:4, where he contrasted the ways of grace and law (which, by the way, has absolutely nothing to do with the security of the believer).
    We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit.

    We are commanded to walk with the Spirit.

    We are commanded not to grieve the Spirit, or to squelch Him.

    "The fruit of The Spirit" speaks of the results of maintaining the filling of The Spirit with the prompt acknowledgement of our transgressions.

    Once regenerated, a believer can never lose the Holy Spirit, the believer is eternally sealed. There are no works required to receive the Holy Spirit, or to keep the Holy Spirit. However, we are commanded to not grieve the Spirit, or to squelch Him.

    Here is an analogy: Glass of white milk, and chocolate syrup.
    The glass of milk is a believer; the chocolate syrup is the Holy Spirit. At the moment of salvation the chocolate syrup is poured into the glass of white milk. The chocolate syrup is stirred up, and it becomes chocolate milk. If one were to look at the color of the milk, it would be brown. Now, letís let the glass of milk sit there for a few hours. What happens? The syrup settles to the bottom, and the milk becomes white again. Is the chocolate syrup still there? Yes, but you canít tell by looking at it, it looks white, in fact you canít even see the chocolate syrup. How do you make it chocolate milk again? Easy, you stir it up.

    Everyone has heard someone say the following: How can so and so be a Christian if they are doing _______(fill in a sin)? Answer: the Holy Spirit is squelched, the glass of milk is white (remember the syrup is still in the glass).

    So, how does a believer go from white milk to chocolate milk? Acknowledge your sin, confess your sin, forget the sin, move forward. Once this simple process is complete, the believer is filled with the spirit (chocolate milk)
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Over 1000 post club dreadknought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    A one on one is something I have never done, even with friends who support me. It is a different ball of wax than single posts.

    There are outsiders that benefit from seeing both sides. I participate if and when I want. The people who demand I answer them all of the time or brow beat me if I do not engage in long posts or one on ones tend not to stick around.

    ... Spam: Gotta love it? Or we just have to live with it!
    "I will guard my ways That I may not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth as with a muzzle While the wicked are in my presence." I was mute and silent, I refrained even from good, And my sorrow grew worse. My heart was hot within me, While I was musing the fire burned; Then I spoke with my tongue:"LORD, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am. NASB

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    Over 1000 post club dreadknought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    I don't see it this way. If I were to outline 1 John it would look something like this:

    I. The Way of Life: 1 John 1:1-10
    A. From the Beginning: 1 John 1:1-4
    B. God is Light: 1 John 1:5
    C. The Walk in the Light: 1 John 1:6-10
    II. The New Relationship: 1 John 2:1-29
    A. The Advocate: 1 John 2:1-6
    B. A New Commandment: 1 John 2:7-17
    C. Abide in Him: 1 John 2:18-29
    snip for space:

    Thanks JCWR for sharing your insight with me.
    "I will guard my ways That I may not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth as with a muzzle While the wicked are in my presence." I was mute and silent, I refrained even from good, And my sorrow grew worse. My heart was hot within me, While I was musing the fire burned; Then I spoke with my tongue:"LORD, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am. NASB

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    you dont stop the work of the Holy Spirit by acts of sin. you stop his work by walking according to the flesh. walking according to the flesh means living like you dont know who you are in Christ. it does not mean commiting acts of carnality, although those can be good signs that you are walking according to the flesh but they are not a guarantee of that.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
    you dont stop the work of the Holy Spirit by acts of sin. you stop his work by walking according to the flesh. walking according to the flesh means living like you dont know who you are in Christ. it does not mean commiting acts of carnality, although those can be good signs that you are walking according to the flesh but they are not a guarantee of that.
    Hi voltaire.

    Spirituality and carnality are mutually exclusive, and therefore are absolutes. A believer cannot be 80% spiritual and 20 carnal. When a believer is filled with the Spirit, he is spiritual, and he walks in the light (I John 1:7); when a believer sins, he is carnal and walks in darkness (I John 1:6).

    A believer sins because of temptation. Temptation comes from the old sin nature, however sin itself comes from our own free volition (free will). Sin can be a thought, a motive, or an act of wrongdoing, all of which is a state of alienation from God.

    Jesus not only paid the penalty for sin, but also destroyed the power of the old sin nature by His death on the Cross. The believer may have victory over the sin nature as long as he lives under ďlaw of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.Ē

    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh (old sin nature) , but after the Spirit (Rom. 8:4).

    To operate under this ďlawĒ, there are three things you must always do when you sin:

    1. Confess the sin 2. Forget the sin. 3. Keep moving forward.

    Sins of Cognizance occur when a person recognizes a temptation as a sin and willingly does it. The person knows he is doing it and probably even enjoys doing it. This sin is a transgression involving human perception and or cognizance. Temptation, however, in and of itself, is not sin. It is not until we act on that temptation that it becomes sin. Second are the Sins of Ignorance. This is when a person is not aware that the old sin nature is tempting them to sin; but nonetheless, he or she desires to commit the sin and does so. An unknown sin is still sin. This is because divine knowledge is available to all. It is still a volitional decision, so it does not matter that the act is committed without one's perception or cognizance.

    Because all sin is related to human volition, the believer is responsible for both categories of sin in their life. In both of these categories the believer is equally guilty. God doesn't excuse anyone. What a believer thinks about his sins doesn't matter, because God is not impressed by what anyone thinks about their sins. So volition is involved in both known and unknown sins

    Since we are totally helpless to solve it, and responsible to God even for sins we are unaware of, how does a believer handle the sin problem? First of all the believer must understand that Jesus Christ was judged on the cross for both sins of ignorance and sins of cognizance. When the believer acknowledges or names a sin of cognizance in confession (1 Jo 1:9), he is simultaneously forgiven the sins of ignorance committed during the time of being out of fellowship. (Jerry said the same thing)

    Again, this is all post salvation doctrine. This is all about spirituality vs carnality, walking in the light vs. walking in darkness.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Here is an analogy: Glass of white milk, and chocolate syrup. The glass of milk is a believer; the chocolate syrup is the Holy Spirit. At the moment of salvation the chocolate syrup is poured into the glass of white milk. The chocolate syrup is stirred up, and it becomes chocolate milk. If one were to look at the color of the milk, it would be brown. Now, letís let the glass of milk sit there for a few hours. What happens? The syrup settles to the bottom, and the milk becomes white again. Is the chocolate syrup still there? Yes, but you canít tell by looking at it, it looks white, in fact you canít even see the chocolate syrup. How do you make it chocolate milk again? Easy, you stir it up.
    Which is all well and good if the Holy Spirit were some passive substance that just sits around and does nothing while indwelling the believer.

    for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

    Think about it.
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    Quote Originally Posted by student ad x View Post
    ... Spam: Gotta love it? Or we just have to live with it!
    Now that was funny, s_a_x!
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    Which is all well and good if the Holy Spirit were some passive substance that just sits around and does nothing while indwelling the believer.

    for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

    Think about it.

    Thanks JCWR

    You are correct.

    Discipline is a perfect example of “God working in you”

    It’s not a perfect analogy, the Holy Spirit is not some passive substance.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    I'm definitely with Door on this one

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