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Thread: Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

  1. #46
    Silver Member kmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Hi voltaire,

    No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

    John was already saved when he wrote these words:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

    "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).

    John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

    Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Could John have been talking about something that happened in the past?

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    Over 1000 post club dreadknought's Avatar
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    Evening JCWR,

    Thanks for your posts. I have a question. In dealing with the schism involved with the target audience are you seeing 1 John 1:5-10 thru 1 John 2:1-27 as two tests of fellowship with God? An ethical test 1 John 1:5-2:17 and a Christological test 1 John 2:18-27

    God bless,
    ...sadx
    Last edited by dreadknought; July 6th, 2008 at 06:57 PM. Reason: clarity of Scripture
    "I will guard my ways That I may not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth as with a muzzle While the wicked are in my presence." I was mute and silent, I refrained even from good, And my sorrow grew worse. My heart was hot within me, While I was musing the fire burned; Then I spoke with my tongue:"LORD, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am. NASB

  3. #48
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    that was a beautiful masterpiece JCWR!! john isnt telling his christian readers that they need to be cleansed of the unrighteousness of the
    gnostic heresy. he is giving them the enormous truth of what it means to be in the light.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Hi voltaire,

    No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

    John was already saved when he wrote these words:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

    "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).

    John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

    Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

    In His grace,
    Jerry


    Definitely to believers.


    When a believer is filled with the Spirit, he is spiritual, and he walks in the light (I John 1:7); when a believer sins, he is carnal and walks in darkness (I John 1:6). These two "laws" are in constant conflict within every believer. For the execution of the Christian way of life, the law of spirituality must supersede the law of carnality.


    As long as there is no unconfessed sin in your life, you remain in temporal fellowship with God, and you are filled with the Spirit. However, at the moment you sin, you are carnal and under the control of the old sin nature. When you confess your sins, God forgives you immediately, He blots out your sins, and you are not only back in fellowship, but as of that moment for one second at least, you are filled with the Spirit.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    That is the most godless perverted thing I have ever read.

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    Silver Member kmoney's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to get Jerry's take on how this confession works. Is it even possible to confess every sin? Or is it just a blanket confession every day? How does it work?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    That is the most godless perverted thing I have ever read.
    Another key point John is making is first, people must be saved by believing in Christ; secondly, while they (believers) produce only human good when they are out of fellowship, they can go from human good to divine good by means of 1 John 1:9
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Okay, that was worse.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    It would be interesting to get Jerry's take on how this confession works. Is it even possible to confess every sin? Or is it just a blanket confession every day? How does it work?
    Iím not Jerry, but my answer to your question is that the believer acknowledges all known sins, asks for forgiveness of the known sins, and then asks for forgiveness of all unknown sins.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Okay, that was worse.
    Well then maybe you could explain the difference between good works, and Divine works (fruits of the Spirit) of a believer.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

  11. #56
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    It would be interesting to get Jerry's take on how this confession works. Is it even possible to confess every sin? Or is it just a blanket confession every day? How does it work?
    Hi kmoney,

    Let us look at the verse:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    I believe John is saying that if the Christian "confesses" (acknowledges) all of the sins of which he is aware then at that time he is cleansed from "all" unrighteousness.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
    Tetelestai, do you believe God disciplines us to develop character in us? if so, then he would use everything at his disposal to accomplish that goal. he wouldnt just use the occasion of a sinful act to discipline. if you want to be a pro football player, you have to discipline your body thru lifting weights, exercise and healthy eating. you dont lift weights because you are being punished.
    if God does indeed discipline, it certainly isnt over sinful acts. its to accomplish a goal in that believer. the sin issue was done away with at the cross. God no longer even considers a persons sins any longer.

    Hebrews 12

    Oops. I forgot this is not in your Bible.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The old, original MAD guys like Sir Robert Anderson, Charles Baker and J.C. O'Hair understood that those who "believed God," no matter what dispensation and message, received the "gift" of eternal life (Ro.6:23). They also understood that the Lord will not renege and take back any "gift" that He bestows (Ro.11:29). And since only the Lord can give or take eternal life then those who possess eternal life will never lose their salvation.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Rom. 11:29 is in a context about corporate election of Israel, etc. for mission or service. It is not a proof text for OSAS and individual salvation issues. Other relevant verses are needed to decide between uncond. vs cond. eternal security.

    The faithfulness of the Lord does not preclude the faithlessness of man. God responds to changing contingencies righteously. He does not condone 'godless believers', the mythical creature of OSAS.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I completely disagree, and will prove you to be in error.
    Does your Bible have Psalm 32 and Psalm 51 with 2 Tim. 3:16?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I completely disagree, and will prove you to be in error.
    I will have company in hell? Bring a book to read, tetelestai.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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