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Thread: Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Can you show how that fits in with the fact that believers are dead to sin? Show where the Bible says God punishes us.
    God does not punish us. Discipline is not punishment. Discipline is to teach, or correct.

    God the Father disciplines His children (believers) the same way a parent disciplines a child. Only a parent who loves a child, disciplines a child.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    I am getting close to posting my next post in our debate.

    I want to interject something.

    I fully agree that God disciplines us, and I may or may not bring that argument into the debate. What is important is that we take the text and not add to it, and that we learn from it what the author intended. I do not believe that discipline has anything to do with the text, nor do I believe that it was on the mind of John when he wrote it.

    I believe that John simply needed to reaffirm his relationship with Jesus to those who hear/read his message and that they return to the message that they first heard and not be deceived by those who had disrupted their faith.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I am getting close to posting my next post in our debate.

    I want to interject something.

    I fully agree that God disciplines us, and I may or may not bring that argument into the debate. What is important is that we take the text and not add to it, and that we learn from it what the author intended. I do not believe that discipline has anything to do with the text, nor do I believe that it was on the mind of John when he wrote it.

    I believe that John simply needed to reaffirm his relationship with Jesus to those who hear/read his message and that they return to the message that they first heard and not be deceived by those who had disrupted their faith.
    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (Phil 3:13)

    What are those things which are behind? SINS! As soon as you confess a sin, you are commanded to forget it.

    “Forgetting” can be accomplished only by believing I John 1:9 and understanding the principle of I John 1:7: “. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleansing us from all sin.” The blood of Christ refers to the death of Christ on the Cross. The work of the “blood,” is twofold: judicial cleansing at the moment of salvation, and experiential cleansing of the carnal believer after salvation.

    How can a righteous God forgive unrighteousness? Because His righteousness was satisfied when the penalty of sin was paid at the Cross. This is the link between 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 1:9. When you simply name your sin, you are citing a sin which has already been judged. So, because of the work of Christ on the Cross, God is absolutely just and fair in forgiving sins.

    Once you confess a sin, you put your problem in the hands of the Lord; you have no right to take it back. If you take the sin back and fret over it, you will create self induced misery. To worry about your past sins or to have a guilt complex is to perpetuate carnality.

    This is what 1 John 1:9 is all about.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    I completely disagree, and will prove you to be in error.

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    Rookie JCWR's Avatar
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    Some comments on 1 John 1:1-4, leveraging the Greek, follow.

    I like 1 John because, for us Greeks, it is one of the portions of the Bible that many school age children can read very easily. The book is written in what some English speakers may call Dick and Jane Greek. Many beginning Greek students are often tasked with reading 1 John because of the simple Greek used: short, crisp sentences and plain, clear words.

    In the opening verse, John announces two clear affirmations: first, that life has its origin in God's character and nature; second, that this life from God has come among us. God is the source of life.

    The Greek word John uses in verse 2 to describe the manifestation of the Word is phaneroō , which means to reveal, to become visible, plain, clear. The English word 'phenomenon' comes from this Greek root word. John teaches us that the decision God made which is described as the Word of life has become vivid and clear, personal and knowable.

    I find it unusual with John's written style in that in both his Gospel and in this first letter, John withholds the name of Jesus Christ until the close of the letter's prologue. In John's Gospel it is not until John 1:17 that the name of Jesus Christ is revealed to the reader. Yet by then it has become clear that the Logos of which John had written is in fact Jesus Christ The Only Son of God. We see in this letter, John uses the same writing style—it is at the close of the prologue (verse 3) that we encounter the holy name of the Logos of life. Jesus is the Word of life. He is the eternal life known intimately by John, and now we are warmly invited to have fellowship with other disciples of Christ as well as with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

    The Greek word translated as fellowship, koinōnia is used in the classical Greek to express very intimate kinds of human relationship such as in marriage. The word's basic root koinos literally literally common, hence communion. It is this interpersonal and encouraging word that John now uses in verse 3. The word's meanings are warm and affirming. Koinōnia is the word for generosity as in Philippians 2:1. It can also be translated with the word participation as in Philemon 1:6. The word may also be translated in its noun form by the word partner or sharer, as in Luke 5:10.

    We should not therefore be surprised that John should conclude his prologue in verse 4 with a single sentence sigh: These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

    The word joy is a light and whimsical word in the Greek—chara. Even today we Greeks still make use of this word as a greeting. From this root the word charis ('grace') is developed especially by Paul as a key word in his vocabulary of love. There is the sense of surprise within the word chara ('joy') and its companion charis ('grace')—the sense of a gift being given when no one expected it.


    In these first four verses, John announces that from before creation, God, who is the source of life, decided to speak that eternal life into the time frame in which we live out our existence. God's breakthrough into our time has indeed happened, and the mystery of this breakthrough is that we have been able to understand and know the core of the mystery. Why? Because at the very center of that mystery is the person Jesus Christ—not life or word as secrets to be decoded, but the Person to be known. The result of our discovery of Jesus Christ is a partnership, a sharing of our life with other human lives and with God the Father and the Son. Finally, this fellowship is so good it is fun!
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    Over 1000 post club dreadknought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (Phil 3:13)

    What are those things which are behind? SINS! As soon as you confess a sin, you are commanded to forget it.
    Isn't Paul putting behind him the ways of the "false circumcision" vs. 2-9 in favor of Christ?
    "I will guard my ways That I may not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth as with a muzzle While the wicked are in my presence." I was mute and silent, I refrained even from good, And my sorrow grew worse. My heart was hot within me, While I was musing the fire burned; Then I spoke with my tongue:"LORD, make me to know my end And what is the extent of my days; Let me know how transient I am. NASB

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    i have to disagree with jerrys latest post. he states the reason for verse 9 is that the believers had accepted the gnostic heresys and had now been made unrighteous. he rejects verse 9 was written as a reminder of how they were saved. instead he insists the readers were now unrighteous sinners in Gods eyes who needed to be cleansed from that unrighteousness. if that were true then johns readers would go to hell if they did not get cleansed from all unrighteousness. how does jerry resolve this serious problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by student ad x View Post
    Isn't Paul putting behind him the ways of the "false circumcision" vs. 2-9 in favor of Christ?


    Forgetting his religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
    i have to disagree with jerrys latest post... he rejects verse 9 was written as a reminder of how they were saved.
    Hi voltaire,

    So you are saying that the following verses served as a reminder as to how they were saved?:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    Why do you think that that would remind them how they were saved since the sinner is born again by the gospel which says nothing about confessing one's sins in order to be cleansed?

    Here is the gospel which Peter preached in his first epistle:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot...Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:18-19,23,25).

    Before anyone's sins can be cleansed they must fiorst believe the gospel. And verse 9 is not the gospel nor would it remind anyone of the gospel by which they were saved.

    voltaire, do you tell people that in order to be saved that they must first believe the gospel and then they must confess their sins?

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    What a sentence is contained in verse 5! God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

    This is a forceful and clear parallelism. John tells us what he means and then tells us what he does not mean. Every great positive truth of the Bible has its negative implication. If Jesus Christ is Lord, then I am not Lord. If God is filled with light then He is not filled with darkness.

    The word light is used interchangeably by John in this letter and in his Gospel for the word truth. (See John 1:9, John 1:14 and 1 John 1:6.) What John means by 'light' and 'truth' is that his teaching is rooted more in the Old Testament understanding of 'light' and 'truth' than in the Greek philosophical understanding of these concepts. We need to closely examine the way that the teaching about light and truth in both the Gospel of John and 1 John is developed.

    In the OT, 'light' has to do with finding the path. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light (Isaiah 9:2). Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path (Psalm 119:105). These texts show the basic connection that is present in the OT between light from God and showing His people the way for their feet. Light is also connected in the OT to an even more fundamental discovery, and that is the discovery of the character and nature of God by His people. For instance, Psalm 27 tells of David's discovery not only of the way, but of God Himself in the midst of David's trial. David had found the face of the Lord. He begins this psalm, The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? (Psalm 27:1). Likewise the text in Isaiah 9 moves from the pathway language to the intensely personal hope, For unto us a Child is born …" (Isaiah 9:6).

    The Lord's summation of the great I AM sentences in John's Gospel is also set into this Old Testament way of thinking about light and truth. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me (John 14:6). Note that this is the language of the roadway and the language of personal encounter with the Father. We find the way in the truth that is Jesus Christ, and because of that way we find the very source of light and life, who is God Himself. Psalms 27 and 119 are now fulfilled in this encounter with Jesus of Nazareth!

    John has the same roadway and interpersonal, encounter mindset in his own thinking as he tells his readers about God. This will be made clear as the verses unfold in 1 John 1:5-10.

    John announces the liberating news that God is not only the source of life but also of light, of truth. John dares to commit God to the way of light. God never deceives, misleads, and distorts. There can be no strategy of heavenly deception on God's part, because God is Light and His own character, His own essential nature, rejects such a strategy. God is not the prince of lies but the One who reveals and shows the way. Darkness hides and confuses pathways, but light makes the faces recognizable and the outline of the roadway discernible.

    But, and this is important, it is not John who has created this message about God. John tells us that it is the message which he heard from God's speech. John has not really committed God to the way of truth, instead he has announced like a trumpeter this good news about God which God himself has already made known. God has spoken for Himself, and we have learned from the first five verses of 1 John that His speech is the speech of Life and of Light.

    John's affirmation is the promise that God's self-disclosure is on the side of truth, and therefore when Jesus Christ is Lord of our life, we then see the road more clearly. Jesus Christ not only shows us who the Father is, He also shows us who we are and where we are. We see better our own faces and we see better the landscape. He is the Light who makes the roadway upon which we live and move and have our being come into focus. As C.S. Lewis once wrote in Miracles: We believe that the sun is in the sky at midday in summer not because we can clearly see the sun (in fact, we cannot) but because we can see everything else.

    I believe that one way to test the worthiness of a person's world-view or religious claim is to ask the question: 'Does this world-view bring all of the parts of the puzzle of my life and world together?' Are the separate pieces that make up normal existence integrated so that each is meaningful and in clear focus when seen through the lens of this world-view? Jesus Christ as Lord and center of our lives makes sense of the parts just as He makes sense of the core. This is the characteristic of light. It is like a lamp unto our feet.
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

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    Gold level Subscriber kmoney's Avatar
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    Someone brought up the first 2 verses of chapter 2 and I also think it is relevant. What does Jesus do as our advocate?

    1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    What a sentence is contained in verse 5! God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

    This is a forceful and clear parallelism. John tells us what he means and then tells us what he does not mean. Every great positive truth of the Bible has its negative implication. If Jesus Christ is Lord, then I am not Lord. If God is filled with light then He is not filled with darkness.

    The word light is used interchangeably by John in this letter and in his Gospel for the word truth. (See John 1:9, John 1:14 and 1 John 1:6.) What John means by 'light' and 'truth' is that his teaching is rooted more in the Old Testament understanding of 'light' and 'truth' than in the Greek philosophical understanding of these concepts. We need to closely examine the way that the teaching about light and truth in both the Gospel of John and 1 John is developed.

    In the OT, 'light' has to do with finding the path. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light (Isaiah 9:2). Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path (Psalm 119:105). These texts show the basic connection that is present in the OT between light from God and showing His people the way for their feet. Light is also connected in the OT to an even more fundamental discovery, and that is the discovery of the character and nature of God by His people. For instance, Psalm 27 tells of David's discovery not only of the way, but of God Himself in the midst of David's trial. David had found the face of the Lord. He begins this psalm, The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? (Psalm 27:1). Likewise the text in Isaiah 9 moves from the pathway language to the intensely personal hope, For unto us a Child is born …" (Isaiah 9:6).

    The Lord's summation of the great I AM sentences in John's Gospel is also set into this Old Testament way of thinking about light and truth. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me (John 14:6). Note that this is the language of the roadway and the language of personal encounter with the Father. We find the way in the truth that is Jesus Christ, and because of that way we find the very source of light and life, who is God Himself. Psalms 27 and 119 are now fulfilled in this encounter with Jesus of Nazareth!

    John has the same roadway and interpersonal, encounter mindset in his own thinking as he tells his readers about God. This will be made clear as the verses unfold in 1 John 1:5-10.

    John announces the liberating news that God is not only the source of life but also of light, of truth. John dares to commit God to the way of light. God never deceives, misleads, and distorts. There can be no strategy of heavenly deception on God's part, because God is Light and His own character, His own essential nature, rejects such a strategy. God is not the prince of lies but the One who reveals and shows the way. Darkness hides and confuses pathways, but light makes the faces recognizable and the outline of the roadway discernible.

    But, and this is important, it is not John who has created this message about God. John tells us that it is the message which he heard from God's speech. John has not really committed God to the way of truth, instead he has announced like a trumpeter this good news about God which God himself has already made known. God has spoken for Himself, and we have learned from the first five verses of 1 John that His speech is the speech of Life and of Light.

    John's affirmation is the promise that God's self-disclosure is on the side of truth, and therefore when Jesus Christ is Lord of our life, we then see the road more clearly. Jesus Christ not only shows us who the Father is, He also shows us who we are and where we are. We see better our own faces and we see better the landscape. He is the Light who makes the roadway upon which we live and move and have our being come into focus. As C.S. Lewis once wrote in Miracles: We believe that the sun is in the sky at midday in summer not because we can clearly see the sun (in fact, we cannot) but because we can see everything else.

    I believe that one way to test the worthiness of a person's world-view or religious claim is to ask the question: 'Does this world-view bring all of the parts of the puzzle of my life and world together?' Are the separate pieces that make up normal existence integrated so that each is meaningful and in clear focus when seen through the lens of this world-view? Jesus Christ as Lord and center of our lives makes sense of the parts just as He makes sense of the core. This is the characteristic of light. It is like a lamp unto our feet.
    To good to get buried in the thread!

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    no jerry, i dont tell them they must confess their sins in order to be saved. but if they have no sin( in their mind) , then exactly what are they being saved from? that is what verse 9 is all about. john has first told them that if they say they have no sin then the truth is not in them. they are being reminded in verse 9 that when they became saved that they had sin and and they were cleansed from all unrighteousness. john says if we confess our sins as a reminder that they at one realized that they were sinners in need of salvation. they needed to be reminded this because gnosticism had taught them that through secret knowledge, they could eventually rid themselves of all sin. it is similar to the perfectionism thru an act of the will that jesse morrell teaches.

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    In verses 6-10, the previous language of the roadway and the language of fellowship are now drawn together by John in a few simple and direct sentences.

    God's truth is not an abstract philosophical ideal to be honored and held up for respectful admiration, but a relationship to be lived. It immediately becomes clear that God's truth is a vibrant roadway upon which we are to walk, and on a day-to-day basis. For John, Christian faith is not a matter of spiritual speculation or the mastery of secrets and code words. John continues to write with the same freshness and lack of pretense that has marked his opening sentences as he now sketches in how a person can live in fellowship with God and with God's people.

    We are to walk in the light, and this means to walk in the way of disclosure. First we discover God in the way of light (1 John 1:6); we also discover ourselves in the way of light (1 John 1:8). What is it that we discover about God? And what do we discover about ourselves? Within these four verses we make these discoveries:

    (1) God is on the side of truth and openness. Therefore, in order for us human beings to have common relationship with God, we must stand before God in the way of openness and light.

    (2) John shares a surprise with his readers. We are told amazing good news at the very moment that we could not even dare to expect it. The way of light is dangerous, and its disclosure is threatening to every human being because the light shows up our own inadequacies and, even worse, our own wickedness. We have walked the way of harm. Now, in the presence of the light, that distorted way is in full view. We are warned not to attempt any cover-up.

    What is it that will happen now as the way of our lives becomes apparent and exposed because of the light of God's justice and truth? We have walked so much of our lives in darkness, moreso than we will want to admit, and therefore John's command to us that we enter upon a totally exposed and brilliantly illuminated roadway is hardly good news. In theory we respect light but to step out into its sheer spotlight intensity is frightening. Then the surprise comes: the Creator of the world has visited the world in person! And we make the greatest discovery of all. The Lord who is the Light for the roadway is also our Companion on the roadway. This is the enormous exception for which we had no right to expect or hope. Jesus Christ is on the road with us as the Light who reveals our sinfulness so that we dare not play games with that fact: If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar. But Jesus Christ is also the Lord of Life who enables us to resolve injustice and sin and the tragedies of darkness. The resolution of the human crisis is a person who comes alongside us in the middle of the road.

    John tells us that if we walk in the light the and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. The word blood is crude and definite for a Greek reader; it is profoundly rich and significant for a Jewish reader or any person grounded in the OT. For each reader the word implies death, but within the background of the Old Testament the word also means life. It is the life of Jesus Christ that is given by which we are resolved and made right for the road of light. John makes use of the strong Greek word katharizōto express the result of this encounter. The word means to 'clean out'. The English word 'catharsis' is from this Greek root. John's message to us is very basic. We are able to do only one thing ourselves and that is to step out into the light. The tragic confusion, anger, and hurtfulness that the light reveals in our lives is too much for us to handle and to resolve by ourselves. God Himself who brings the light also brings the help; that help is the Person Jesus Christ who gives His own life in our behalf. At just the right moment, we discover the enormous exception that God does not destroy the wanderers He finds upon the road. Rather He cleanses them and qualifies them for the way of light.

    John insists one very important point. To walk in the light does not mean that a human being is sinless and flawless; rather to walk in the light means that a human being as a sinner is, in the light, fully aware that he or she is a sinner. That is the point! The surprise of this passage is that just such a sinner is not a lost cause, beyond help, but that at just the right moment the companion of our road—who himself is the source of the light which makes us recognize our guilt—now becomes the means of our help which resolves our guilt. The answer to the human tragedy therefore is not a secret to be learned, not an escape from the road into a more spiritual atmosphere, and not the denial of the problem, but the man Jesus Christ alongside.

    John presents a classic summary sentence in verse 1 John 1:9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins…" The Greek word that is translated in our text by the word "confess" is the word homologeō. This word means 'to agree' or 'to declare alike'. It is made up of two Greek words, the prefix homo, which means literally 'alike', and logos, 'word, speech'. We are told by John that our responsibility is to agree with God about the nature of our crises. This openness and vulnerability on our part is what firmly plants our feet upon the pathway of light. There are no special code words to learn or special incense formulas to master, or elaborate rituals to perform!

    We are to stand in the open position and admit who we are, agree with God and receive cleansing and forgiveness. The word 'forgive' in Greek means to leave behind, literally to abandon. The promise to us from John is that God will forgive, will leave behind our sins. He who is righteous will cleanse us from our anti-righteousness. We learn from John by his use of one single word that forgiveness is a costly gift. That one word is the word 'blood'. Jesus Christ has won for humankind the right to the way of light and life because of the event of his own lifeblood spent on our behalf. Forgiveness is not a transaction in a courtroom but the event that happens at a cross.

    One final part of John's affirmation has to do with the fellowship of those who are on the roadway together with Jesus Christ. John teaches that the openness before God that enables our forgiveness also enables our fellowship. Fellowship is not founded upon deception and never has been. It is the common or shared crisis that the disciples experience together when the light of the road first confronts us, and that common crisis is resolved in the common forgiveness that comes when we recognize our sinfulness and our need for the Savior.

    This means that the kind of fellowship that John is describing in this chapter is the fellowship of brokenness. The people we meet on the roadway of 1 John 1 are too wrung out by the experience of God's sheer honesty and light to play games about moral superiority or mystical one-upsmanship. These persons have met the good light, the enormous exception, and the main feelings that they have are gratitude and joy. John had promised it, and now we are able to feel it in this great chapter. The fellowship that emerges between such persons is not superficial but substantial. We have discovered the brokenness of each other and because of the broken healer we are drawn together into a fellowship of grace. It is a fellowship that is created by the act of God and by our walking in the light the blood of Jesus Christ keeps on cleansing us from every defilement due to sin.
    JCWR
    Romans 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

  16. #45
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
    no jerry, i dont tell them they must confess their sins in order to be saved. but if they have no sin( in their mind) , then exactly what are they being saved from?.
    Hi voltaire,

    No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

    John was already saved when he wrote these words:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

    "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).

    John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

    Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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