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Thread: Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

  1. #16
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I am glad Jerry accepted the challenge. We do not agree in any way about the text.
    OK


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    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Nobody does.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Since John was writing to Christians, they already had to have confessed their sins before they were baptized (if we're reading the NT literally). So what would he need to say, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves...If we confess our sins..."? Why would John say "we"? That would include John himself (if we're reading the NT literally).

    Chapter 2 continues, "...if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father...," John continues, "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." These believers heard the commandments, so they had their past sins forgiven them, but were assured that their future sins would have to be, and commanded to be, asked for forgiveness.

    James wrote to the Jews saying, "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him...Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another...Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him...," James 5:15, 16, 19. It is the prayer of the faithful that the sick will be saved from their sins, which is why confessing their faults one to another is important, and humbling.
    "I had learned many English words, and could recite part of the Ten Commandments, I knew how to sleep on a bed, pray to Jesus, comb my hair, eat with a fork, and use a toilet...I also learned that a person thinks with his head instead of his heart."

    -Hopi Sun Chief

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Lighthouse,

    Please read my initial post again. I never said anything about anyone losing their salvation. In fact, I stated that the believer is sealed by the Spirit until the time when he will put on his immortal body.

    Also, I have always said that no one, before the Cross or after, can lose their salvation.

    So before you make your comments I would ask you to get your facts straight.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    The older, original MAD guys, did they believe in OSAS for OT and NT? I thought Bob Hill said Jews could lose salvation, but Christians cannot? In my mind, if one can argue against OSAS for some 'believers', I should not be condemned to hell because I see the same principle in Pauline writings.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    That's what I'm saying. You are not the person Door was looking for in this debate. He wanted someone who said we must confess regularly to keep our salvation.
    Who says that? Maybe Jesse, but few others, including myself. I can't imagine the things I could confess, but never do, without any risk to my destiny.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Saint View Post
    I believe to really seal a debate on this issue (my own personal oppinion!) you should include 1John 2:1-2 in the discussion! These two verses are clear as to who John was speaking too and are also a continuation on the matter of sin!

    once again, just my oppinion!!
    Paul's style is linear, while John's is often circular. Like Galatians, the context shifts at times, so we must decide where Paul is talking about false vs true gospels, or legalistic Christians vs plain, bad legalists, or where John is talking about believers who sin, or unbelievers who sin. John deals with both issues, so watch the context (I agree to look at the whole book, not just a section).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Are you Irish? You are quite feisty.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Confessing that you are a sinner and believing that Christ will cleanse you from all unrighteousness is what all christians do to become saved. any truly saved christian would understand this concept. if a christian community had false teachers sneak in and convince potential converts that they were sinless and that it was possible to live sinlessly, then those that bought into that lie would erroneously think that they were christian. these nominal christians were fellowshipping with true christians and causing much discord im sure.
    this setting would make much more sense for john to write verse 9. so the letter is addressed to a church that is mixed with true believers and those who only think they are saved but in reality, they walk in darkness.

  10. #24
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    The older, original MAD guys, did they believe in OSAS for OT and NT? I thought Bob Hill said Jews could lose salvation, but Christians cannot?
    The old, original MAD guys like Sir Robert Anderson, Charles Baker and J.C. O'Hair understood that those who "believed God," no matter what dispensation and message, received the "gift" of eternal life (Ro.6:23). They also understood that the Lord will not renege and take back any "gift" that He bestows (Ro.11:29). And since only the Lord can give or take eternal life then those who possess eternal life will never lose their salvation.

    As far as Bob Hill is concerned, I believe that you are right in regard to his teaching. However, his ideas on the subject of salvation in different dispensations and the application of the Jewish epistles are closer to the teaching of E.W. Bullinger (Acts 28) than it is to Anderson, Baker and O'Hair.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    I agree with Jerry for the most part.

    God disciplines believers when they sin. For the discipline to stop, a believer has to acknowledge the sin, confess the sin, then forget the sin, and move forward.

    For those who do not believe in confessing of sins, please explain why God disciplines believers? Also explain how or why the discipline ends?

    The confessing of sins has nothing to do with salvation, or judgment, it has everything to do with walking in the light, or walking in darkness as Jerry pointed out.

    Once a sin is acknowledged, confessed, forgotten, and the believer moves forward (walks in the light) discipline can no longer be present for the sin. However, consequences of sin may result from a sin for the rest of the believerís life, but consequences are different from discipline. Discpline continues until the sin is acknowledged, confessed, and forgotten.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Tetelestai, do you believe God disciplines us to develop character in us? if so, then he would use everything at his disposal to accomplish that goal. he wouldnt just use the occasion of a sinful act to discipline. if you want to be a pro football player, you have to discipline your body thru lifting weights, exercise and healthy eating. you dont lift weights because you are being punished.
    if God does indeed discipline, it certainly isnt over sinful acts. its to accomplish a goal in that believer. the sin issue was done away with at the cross. God no longer even considers a persons sins any longer.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    </p>
    Of course, it is all about you, isn't it, godrulz? Unbelievable!
    Narcissism is very much a trait of legalism.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    I agree with Jerry for the most part.

    God disciplines believers when they sin. For the discipline to stop, a believer has to acknowledge the sin, confess the sin, then forget the sin, and move forward.

    For those who do not believe in confessing of sins, please explain why God disciplines believers? Also explain how or why the discipline ends?

    The confessing of sins has nothing to do with salvation, or judgment, it has everything to do with walking in the light, or walking in darkness as Jerry pointed out.

    Once a sin is acknowledged, confessed, forgotten, and the believer moves forward (walks in the light) discipline can no longer be present for the sin. However, consequences of sin may result from a sin for the rest of the believerís life, but consequences are different from discipline. Discpline continues until the sin is acknowledged, confessed, and forgotten.
    Can you show how that fits in with the fact that believers are dead to sin? Show where the Bible says God punishes us.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    i would rep you nick but the system wont let me yet.

  19. #30
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
    Tetelestai, do you believe God disciplines us to develop character in us? if so, then he would use everything at his disposal to accomplish that goal. he wouldnt just use the occasion of a sinful act to discipline. if you want to be a pro football player, you have to discipline your body thru lifting weights, exercise and healthy eating. you dont lift weights because you are being punished.
    if God does indeed discipline, it certainly isnt over sinful acts. its to accomplish a goal in that believer. the sin issue was done away with at the cross. God no longer even considers a persons sins any longer.
    What you are talking about is Christian suffering. Christian suffering is different than discipline. Discipline is to teach, suffering is to grow in character. However, what may be discipline to one believer may be suffering to another believer, and vice versa.

    Job is the perfect example of Christian suffering.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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