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Thread: One on One: Door and Jerry Shugart on 1 John 1:1-10

  1. #46
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    They were weak, sick, and asleep, because they had eaten all the food and drank all the wine.
    This is the most ridiculous statement that you have made to date!

    If we are to believe you we must suppose that the words "many sleep" are just speaking about some of them taking a little nap?

    This just shows how far you will go to cling to your mistaken views. And of course you just ignored what I said when I demonstrated that these people were made sick and some died as a result of a judgment, that judgment being the chastening of God.

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).

    The Greek word translated "for" in these verses is a conjuction which "addresses the Cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    When we see the word "for" it is introducing a statement that gives the reason of a preceding statement:

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."

    The reason or cause that many were made sick and put to death was because they had eaten at the Lord's table in an unworthy manner.

    "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord."

    Here we can understand that the reason many were made sick and many were dead was because these people did not judge themselves and so they were judged of God. And that judgment was a chastening of the Lord.

    Since this completely destroys all of your arguments in this debate you must give the most ridiculous answer to these verses--that these people were feeling a litte sickly and some were taking a little nap because they had eaten all the food and had gotten drunk!

    You should be ashamed of yourself for treating the Scriptures in such a disrespectful manner!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; July 11th, 2008 at 04:44 PM.

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    You are making up your own bizarre interpretation of the text. It doesn't say ANYTHING close to what you think it says. I gave you the correct interpretation of the text, and you spit on it like you do the Holy Spirit.

    No one died from eating, or from being judged by God. You are insane. The text does not say that, and I have completely defeated your false gospel of works righteousness.

    They were sick, and asleep, because they ate all the food and drank all the wine, before the others were able to share.

    It says so in the text.

    "Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?"

    "So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment."

    You are certifiably insane Jerry

  3. #48
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    You are making up your own bizarre interpretation of the text. It doesn't say ANYTHING close to what you think it says.
    Then why don't you show me where I am wrong? Does the Greek word translated "for" not carry the meaning that I put upon it?

    Or all the Greek experts wrong and you are right?
    I gave you the correct interpretation of the text, and you spit on it like you do the Holy Spirit.

    No one died from eating, or from being judged by God. You are insane. The text does not say that, and I have completely defeated your false gospel of works righteousness.
    You have not addressed the points that I have made. All you do is hurl out false accusations in the hope that no one will notice that you do not have an answer.

    According to you the damnation spoken of in these verses was that those who ate and drank unworthily were weak and sickly and took a little nap, all because the ate all the food and drank all the wine before the others were abble to share:

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."

    You are fast losing your credibility, and unless you admit that you are wrong about these verses you will no longer have any credibility.

    You continue to insist that a Christian will not come into any condemnation before God. I admit that in regard to his eternal destiny he will not come into condemnation. But he can indeed come into condemnation in regard to his walk, the things which he does in his body. For instance, consider the following remarks about a believer, one sanctified by the blood of Christ:

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29).

    And we also know that the words in regard to a "sorer punishment" are not in regard to any punishment doled out by the church because of the words which follow:

    "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Heb.10:30).

    This alone should tell you that the ideas on which your whole argument is based are nothing but false ideas.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    This is the most ridiculous statement that you have made to date!
    Hang in there, because based on the bizarre things you post, what I say, will appear more and more ridiculous to you.

    And of course you just ignored what I said when I demonstrated that these people were made sick and some died as a result of a judgment, that judgment being the chastening of God.
    No, I did not ignore it, I almost wet myself laughing at you.

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).
    They are eating and drinking "unworthily, because they are "taking the food first:, and "getting drunk". They are showing no respect for the rest of the Body (you know, the CHURCH). They are being condemned by everyone else, because no one else got anything to eat. They are sick, weak, and asleep, because they are gluttons, and drunkards, who are only thinking about themselves. If they had judged their behavior, and not done this, then they would not be judged by the Body. God judges the world who is condemned for things like that, so when we are judged by the Body, we can receive it as a discipline from the Lord, so that we will wait on the others to share the meal with us. God is not wiping people out for being stupid. If that was the case, you would have died along time ago.


  5. #50
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    No, I did not ignore it, I almost wet myself laughing at you.
    Yes you did. You said nothing about the structure of the verses, including the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" in two different verses. I will go through it again in the hope that you will not ignore it a third time:

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).

    The Greek word translated "for" in these verses is a conjuction which "addresses the Cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    When we see the word "for" it is introducing a statement that gives the reason of a preceding statement:

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."

    The reason or cause that many were made sick and put to death was because they had eaten at the Lord's table in an unworthy manner.

    "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord."

    Here we can understand that the reason many were made sick and many were dead was because these people did not judge themselves and so they were judged of God. And that judgment was a chastening of the Lord.
    They are eating and drinking "unworthily, because they are "taking the food first:, and "getting drunk". They are showing no respect for the rest of the Body (you know, the CHURCH). They are being condemned by everyone else, because no one else got anything to eat. They are sick, weak, and asleep, because they are gluttons, and drunkards, who are only thinking about themselves. If they had judged their behavior, and not done this, then they would not be judged by the Body.
    You continue to insist that a Christian will not come into any condemnation before God. I admit that in regard to his eternal destiny he will not come into condemnation. But he can indeed come into condemnation in regard to his walk, the things which he does in his body. For instance, consider the following remarks about a believer, one sanctified by the blood of Christ:

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29).

    And we also know that the words in regard to a "sorer punishment" are not in regard to any punishment doled out by the church because of the words which follow:

    "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Heb.10:30).

    You did not respond to these verses the first time I quoted them. With these verses in view perhaps you will tell us why we should not believe that the Christian comes into judgment before the Lord in regard to his "walk," or the things done in the body.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Jerry... how dense are you?

    The word "FOR" is there to explain why they are weak, sick, and asleep. It is BECAUSE they ate the supper unworthily.

    They ate the supper unworthily because they ate the food before the others had an opportunity, and they got drunk.

    You continue to insist that a Christian will not come into any condemnation before God.
    That has to do with me believing God, and you calling Him a liar. Romans 8:1

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29).
    Jerry, try and pay attention...

    "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
    Hebrews 10:26-27

    Jesus is the only sacrifice for your sins, and this He did once for all. He is not going to die again. There is no more sacrifice for your sins. If you claim that you are still having your sins held against you, then you have no sacrifice to take away your sin! You have been told the truth about the sacrifice of Jesus, and if you reject His sacrifice there is no hope for you. The only thing you have to look forward to if you reject the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins, is judgment.

    “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.” Hebrews 9:27-28

    We died with Christ. All of our sins died with Christ. We will not come into judgment. Jesus has already died and been judged for our sins. You want to kill Him over and over again.

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” John 5:24

    "Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." Hebrews 10:28

    Under the Law, it only took the testimony of two or three to confirm that you were rejecting it, and you would die without mercy.

    "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
    Hebrews 10:29

    Anyone who rejects the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus to take away their sins has insulted the grace of God. When someone claims that they are not free from sin, then they reject Christ's sacrifice and consider His blood unclean and ineffective. At the cross, Jesus was crucified for the sins of the whole world. God was satisfied with His provision, which brings justification of life to all men.

    This is what you are doing Jerry. You are trampling under foot the Son of God and calling His blood unclean and insufficient to have cleansed you from all unrighteousness.

  7. #52
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    The word "FOR" is there to explain why they are weak, sick, and asleep. It is BECAUSE they ate the supper unworthily.
    That is exactly what I said:

    "The reason or cause that many were made sick and put to death was because they had eaten at the Lord's table in an unworthy manner."

    But you still have not addressed what I said after that:

    "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord."

    "Here we can understand that the reason many were made sick and many were dead was because these people did not judge themselves and so they were judged of God. And that judgment was a chastening of the Lord."

    We know that because of the Greek word translated "for"--"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

    The Greek word translated "for" in this verses is a conjuction which "addresses the Cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    The reason many were made sick and many were dead was because these people did not judge themselves and therefore they received the chastening of the Lord.

    When are you finally going to address these things, Door? You answered a part of it but then when it came to the critical verses you did not even attempt to defend your false ideas. Nice try, but no cigar.

    Is This Person Saved?

    Next, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. Was this person saved, the person described as being sanctified with the blood?

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29).

    If your answer is "yes," then tell me how he could come into a judgment from God since you deny that the saved person never comes into judgment before God. The verse which follows indicates that the "sorer punishment" spoken of in verse 29 is indeed in regard to a judgment from the Lord:

    "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Heb.10:30).

    These words here remind me of the words of Paul addressed to Christians in the following verses:

    "That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (1Thess.4:6-7).

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    But you still have not addressed what I said after that:

    "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord."

    "Here we can understand that the reason many were made sick and many were dead was because these people did not judge themselves and so they were judged of God. And that judgment was a chastening of the Lord."

    We know that because of the Greek word translated "for"--"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

    The Greek word translated "for" in this verses is a conjuction which "addresses the Cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    The reason many were made sick and many were dead was because these people did not judge themselves and therefore they received the chastening of the Lord.

    When are you finally going to address these things, Door?
    I did Jerry, stop lying. Why is it important to you to continually lie and be dishonest. Are you suffering from some kind of insecurity? Are you alone? Does no one like you? Maybe if you stopped lying, you might have some friends.

    I answered you twice...

    Quote Originally Posted by Door
    The word "FOR" is there to explain why they are weak, sick, and asleep. It is BECAUSE they ate the supper unworthily.

    They ate the supper unworthily because they ate the food before the others had an opportunity, and they got drunk.
    And here...

    They are eating and drinking "unworthily, because they are "taking the food first:, and "getting drunk". They are showing no respect for the rest of the Body (you know, the CHURCH). They are being condemned by everyone else, because no one else got anything to eat. They are sick, weak, and asleep, because they are gluttons, and drunkards, who are only thinking about themselves. If they had judged their behavior, and not done this, then they would not be judged by the Body. God judges the world who is condemned for things like that, so when we are judged by the Body, we can receive it as a discipline from the Lord, so that we will wait on the others to share the meal with us. God is not wiping people out for being stupid. If that was the case, you would have died along time ago.
    Is This Person Saved?

    Next, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. Was this person saved, the person described as being sanctified with the blood?

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29).
    No. The death of Jesus set every person apart that they might come to Christ by faith. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Those who choose to continue in sin, reject the sacrifice. Sanctification applies in various ways. Don't just look at a word and think it has the same application is every situation it does not. The world was sanctified when Jesus died for it, and individuals are sanctified when the receive Christ. We can sanctify our bodies by using them in ways that they were intended. It's just a word, to describe something being set apart for it's intended purpose.

  9. #54
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I did Jerry, stop lying. Why is it important to you to continually lie and be dishonest. Are you suffering from some kind of insecurity? Are you alone? Does no one like you? Maybe if you stopped lying, you might have some friends.
    Anyone reading this debate can see one thing clearly. You have no use for Paul's words here:

    "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:1-3).

    I am sure that you are aware of Paul's words there and I am sure that you know what they mean. But for some reason you do not apply them to yourself.

    Your behavior on this forum is reprehensible and I know now that I should have never believed your promise that you made to me before this debate began. You said:
    I am making a commitment to refrain from personal attacks, and to stick with the text.
    Now let us see how blind you are to the meaning of the Scriptures:

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Heb.10:30-31).

    I asked you:

    "Was this person saved, the person described as being sanctified with the blood?"

    Of course you must deny that he was saved since if he was saved that would destroy your whole argument. So you said:
    No. The death of Jesus set every person apart that they might come to Christ by faith. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Those who choose to continue in sin, reject the sacrifice. Sanctification applies in various ways. Don't just look at a word and think it has the same application is every situation it does not. The world was sanctified when Jesus died for it, and individuals are sanctified when the receive Christ. We can sanctify our bodies by using them in ways that they were intended. It's just a word, to describe something being set apart for it's intended purpose.
    You are wrong and the text proves it. After describing the person sanctified by the blood the author of Hebrews applies the following words to that person:

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Heb.10:30-31).

    Only you would argue that even though this person was sanctified by the blood and set apart as one of the Lord's people he was not saved!

    And why would Paul warn his readers about the vengence of God if they were not in danger of that same vengence that belongs to the Lord:

    "That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (1Thess.4:6-7).

    Are those in the following verse, who had tasted of the heavenly gift and made partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved?

    "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" (Heb.6:4-8).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Anyone reading this debate can see one thing clearly. You have no use for Paul's words here:

    "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:1-3).

    I am sure that you are aware of Paul's words there and I am sure that you know what they mean. But for some reason you do not apply them to yourself.

    Your behavior on this forum is reprehensible and I know now that I should have never believed your promise that you made to me before this debate began. You said:
    This thread is PACKED FULL of your insults and personal attacks.

    You are wrong and the text proves it. After describing the person sanctified by the blood the author of Hebrews applies the following words to that person:

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Heb.10:30-31).

    Only you would argue that even though this person was sanctified by the blood and set apart as one of the Lord's people he was not saved!
    Jerry, he is speaking to the Jews. They are His people, but they are not saved. They refused to go where God was taking them, which is to Christ. He died for them, and, like you, have rejected Him.

    You have NO argument. I have been through this for years with people who are much more qualified than you to make their case.

    And why would Paul warn his readers about the vengence of God if they were not in danger of that same vengence that belongs to the Lord:

    "That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (1Thess.4:6-7).

    Are those in the following verse, who had tasted of the heavenly gift and made partakers of the Holy Spirit, saved?

    "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned" (Heb.6:4-8).
    No Jerry, they are not saved. The Jews had tasted the word of God, and the Holy Spirit had worked with them and through them, they were well acquainted with His miracles, but they FELL AWAY! Why, because they would not enter His rest. They were cut-off as a people, because they would not accept Christ, just like you!

    Now, I have answered your questions, and my answers are correct. YOU have ignored many of my points, and I have said nothing about it, but really it does not matter, because I don't care about you. And I know that others have seen you wiggle your way out of those points, and they are laughing at your stupidity.
    Last edited by Door; July 11th, 2008 at 09:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Now, I have answered your questions, and my answers are correct.
    Door, I cannot agree with you that your answers are correct. You deny that those who have been sanctified by the blood and set apart as one of the Lord's people are saved. You deny that those whom had been partakers of the Holy Spirit are saved.

    You will probably deny that the following people are saved:

    "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works" (Heb.10:22-24).

    There is no doubt in my mind that these people are saved, the author speaking of a "full assurance of faith."

    Let us look at the verses which directly follow:

    "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb.10:25-27).

    These verses are in regard to the same people spoken of in the verses that immediately preceded. So the same saved people are still in view. And we read:

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..."

    Here the author of Hebrews, no doubt a saved individual, uses the pronoun "we," and says that if we sin willfully that judgment will surely come upon us who do such a thing.

    Judgment and firely indignation! On saved people!

    But according to your argument, no saved individuals will be judged by God.

    So what is your solution?

    Perhaps we can get a clue from the verse which is the subject of this debate:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    Again, John uses the pronoun "we." Since he is saved and those who received his letter were saved (1 Jn.2:12) then it should be obvious to the spiritually enlightened that John is telling Christians to confess their sins, and upon confession the Lord will cleanse them from their sins.

    But somehow you have been decived into believing that John is not telling the Christian to confess his sin.

    The solution to your problem? Just trick your mind into believing that the word "we" is not in regard to saved people at all. And when John uses the pronoun "our" just trick your mind into believing that John is not addressing saved people. And you can also trick your mind into believing that the word "we" at Hebrews 10:26-27 is not in reference to saved people.

    There, you have solved all your prolems and you can declare yourself the winner of the debate. Unfortunately, your ideas are not rooted in reality. Door, Sir Robert Anderson accurately descibes the malady that has overtaken you here:

    “In no other sphere save that of religion do men of intelligence and culture willingly subject their minds to delusions. The ‘historic Church’ once tried to compel belief that this planet was the fixed centre of the solar system; but who believes it now? Men cannot be made to believe that water runs uphill, or that five and five make anything but ten. In no other sphere can they be induced to stultify reason and common sense. But in religion there seems to be no limit to their credulity” (Anderson,The Bible or the Church?, p. 61).

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Looks like unless I explain the whole thing to you, you will never get any of this.

    It's long, but necessary, for you to see where you have erred.


    “For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.” Romans 6:10

    “For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.” Hebrews 9:16-17

    If you have a will when does it go into effect? On the day you die, right?
    And if you have made more than one will, which one is valid when you die?
    The last one, correct? Any previous will, has no bearing on the last one. So no matter what you may have previously stated or put in writing, the inheritors will only receive that which is promised in the last will you made.


    “Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you." And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Hebrews 9:18-22

    The first covenant required a sacrifice in order for it to go into effect. Moses took the blood of bulls and goats to cleanse the people from their sins, because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Paul says there is NO FORGIVENESS without the shedding of blood. We need to ask ourselves if there is going to be anymore sacrifice or any more shedding of blood for sin. Those who are in Christ, who have His life dwelling in them, need to solidify in their minds, that there is no more sacrifice for sin. There is no altar that they can approach, no confession booth, and no sacrifice that they can make that will please or satisfy God. God is satisfied with only ONE sacrifice for ALL sin, for ALL men, for ALL time.

    It is this sacrifice alone that we must accept by faith.


    “For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 9:24-26

    Having made the once for all sacrifice for sin, Jesus appears before God on our behalf. The Bible says that those who are His can now come boldly to the throne of grace, because He alone is your mediator, and you stand in Him, holy, complete, blameless, and righteous.

    Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant. The first covenant had failed, because Israel could not keep it.

    "For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." Hebrews 7:18-19

    There is nothing wrong with the Law. As Paul says, it is holy, and righteous and good, but it can only show you that you are imperfect and that you are a dead sinner who needs life.

    The Law cannot give you life, only Jesus can.


    "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near."
    Hebrews 10:1

    Attempting to keep the Law, or looking to the Law as a guide to be made perfect is not only never going to happen, but those who attempt to do so deny the grace of God.

    In order to be perfect, you have to be made perfect, and that can only happen by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. It is a gift.

    "Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?" Hebrews 10:2

    In other words, if you are going to have to keep doing this over and over again, is it really working? Worship is defined as complete surrender of our bodies to God for His purposes. We can do this knowing that God has completely dealt with the sin issue, that separated us from Him. We are free from any and all consciousness of sin. It is difficult to come to God freely available to Him, if we believe that His sacrifice was insufficient to have settled the sin issue one and for all.

    "For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:13-14

    A dead work is doing something to get something you can never achieve, or is already completed.

    It’s the same as trying to be made right by doing right. All you can do is fail. It is a dead work.


    "But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year."
    Hebrews 10:3

    "Those" sacrifices (the ones made under the Law) are insufficient, and therefore you would have a reminder of your sins. You would have consciousness of your sin. Why?


    "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Hebrews 10:4

    The blood of the bulls and goats is inferior to the blood of Jesus. Jesus "takes away" your sins, never to be seen again.

    You are serving a goat god Jerry, and not the God of the Bible.

    Sacrifices under the Law

    • Can never make you perfect
    • Can never stop you from being sin conscious
    • Reminded of your sins year after year
    • Can never take away your sin



    The Sacrifice of Jesus

    • Takes away your sin, once for all
    • No more reminder of your sins
    • No more sin consciousness
    • Makes you perfect forever



    "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me;" Hebrews 10:5

    God is not propitiated (satisfied) by the sacrifices of bulls and goats. They are not sufficient to take away sin once and for all. So God sent His Son in a body of flesh to "take away" our sins, once and for all.

    "In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure."
    Hebrews 10:6

    God takes no pleasure in any other sacrifice for your sins.

    "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the roll of the book it is written of Me) To do Thy will, O God.'" Hebrews 10:7

    The scriptures revealed that God is going to send the Messiah to carry out His will to be the Savior of the world.

    "After saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast not desired, nor hast Thou taken pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law)," Hebrews 10:8

    This verse makes certain that God takes no pleasure in any other sacrifice than that of His Son.

    "...then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:9

    The sacrifice of Jesus is wholly sufficient, and it completely replaces those sacrifices that the Law required. He takes away the demand of the Law in yearly sacrifices, and establishes the fact that His sacrifice is the ONLY sacrifice that satisfies God in taking away your sin. It is in this will of God's that we are cleansed from all our sins.

    "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10

    It cannot be more clear! The sacrifice of Jesus has set us apart (sanctified us) unto God. He did this once (there are no more sacrifices), and He did it for all! Jesus died for the sins of the entire world and He is not going to die again. (This does not mean that the entire world is saved, because salvation is in Him, in His life. "In Him we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sins".)

    "And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins, but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,"
    Hebrews 10:11-12

    Again, any other sacrifice can never take away your sins. When you trust in any other sacrifice to take away your sins, you are denying the one sacrifice that does.

    The sacrifice of Jesus will be offered only once, for all sins for all time.


    ALL TIME = perpetuity.


    There is NO MORE sacrifice for sin! Jesus finished what He set out to do, and that is why He has "sat down" at the right hand of God... "It is finished!"

    "...waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet." Hebrews 10:13

    Jesus completed God's will in regard to sin. He is now awaiting the judgment of His enemies, which includes those who reject His sacrifice as sufficient.

    "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14

    This one sacrifice that Jesus has made has perfected perpetually those who are sanctified. The other sacrifices could not make perfect those who draw near, but the sacrifice of Jesus does indeed make those who come to Him by faith perfect forever. They no longer have sin.

    “For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.” Romans 6:5-7

    "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And upon their mind I will write them," He then says, "And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
    Hebrews 10:15-17

    God has written His laws upon our hearts and minds, not so that we can keep them to be acceptable to God, but because we have fulfilled them in Christ. The Law has been satisfied through the one sacrifice according to the will of God. Therefore, God no longer remembers our sins and lawless deeds.

    “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” Romans 8:1-4


    “Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.” Hebrews 10:18

    In order for us to need further forgiveness, then we would have to be under the law of sin and death. And, in order for there to be any further forgiveness available, Jesus would have to die again.

    If we continue to claim that we have sin that must be forgiven, then there is going to have to be an offer for that sin, which is an insult to the sacrifice of Jesus as being sufficient to take away our sin. There is no other offer for sin! Not guilt, not indulgences, not re-dedication, and not confession!


    "Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."
    Hebrews 10:19-22

    We are now looking at a summary of the last several chapters of Hebrews. Jesus, alone, is the sacrifice for our sins, which He accomplished in the flesh, and He alone has cleansed our evil consciences of sin and guilt, if indeed we accept His sacrifice and are not trusting in our own sacrifices. We can now go boldly before God, because we are no longer in sin, but in Him

    "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"


    A death must take place in order for a covenant to be in effect.

    The first covenant sacrifices were inferior because they had to be offered over and over again, they could never take away sin, and they could never make us perfect.

    The new covenant is superior. The sacrifice of Jesus was offered once and for all. His sacrifice takes away our sin, we are sanctified and perfected for all time.

    Under the old covenant, the nation of Israel failed to keep it, The Law that God gave to Moses, made no one perfect, because of the weakness of the flesh.

    Under the new covenant, the old is taken away. The law is fulfilled in us who are in the spirit, and not in the flesh. The law is therefore put in our hearts and written on our minds, and our sins are remembered no more!

    There is no more offering for sin. We can come to God with all confidence, because in Christ we are free from sin.


    "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near."
    Hebrews 10:23-25

    The confession of our hope is that Jesus has cleansed us from all sin for all time. There is no more sacrifice for our sins. We are to confess that Jesus has satisfied God and set us apart from our sin and made us perfect forever, because He is faithful! Therefore we can stimulate one another to do those things which are profitable, because we are no longer under God's wrath or the Law which condemned us. So don't set yourself apart from the body of Christ, but rather encourage one another with all that you have discovered about the good news of Christ's sufficiency, and your freedom from sin!


    Why do we need to let others know that these things are so? Why do we need to gather with others in the body of Christ to encourage them that we are free from sin, and that there is no other offering for sin?


    "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
    Hebrews 10:26-27

    Jesus is the only sacrifice for your sins, and this He did once for all. He is not going to die again. There is no more sacrifice for your sins. If you claim that God still takes your sin into account, then you have no sacrifice to take away your sin! You have been told the truth about the sacrifice of Jesus, and if you reject His sacrifice there is no hope for you. The only thing you have to look forward to if you reject the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins, is judgment.

    "For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." Romans 8:5-10

    “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.” Hebrews 9:27-28

    We died with Christ. All of our sins died with Christ. We will not come into judgment. Jesus has already died and been judged for our sins. You want to kill Him over and over again.

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” John 5:24

    "Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." Hebrews 10:28

    Under the Law, it only took the testimony of two or three to confirm that you were rejecting it, and you would die without mercy.

    "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"
    Hebrews 10:29

    Anyone who rejects the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus to take away their sins has insulted the grace of God. When someone claims that they are not free from sin, then they reject Christ's sacrifice and consider His blood unclean and ineffective. At the cross, Jesus was crucified for the sins of the whole world. God was satisfied with His provision, which brings justification of life to all men.

    This is what you are doing Jerry. You are trampling under foot the Son of God and calling His blood unclean and insufficient to have cleansed you from all unrighteousness.

  13. #58
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10

    It cannot be more clear! The sacrifice of Jesus has set us apart (sanctified us) unto God. He did this once (there are no more sacrifices), and He did it for all!
    Thanks for your lengthy post as it confirmed that you are blind when it comes to understanding the difference between a Christian's "standing" and his "walk."

    You never once distingused between the two because for some reason you continue to walk in your blindness. You have become like those the Lord and Savior spoke of, saying "By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive" (Mt.13:14).

    Your lengthy post did contain many valuable truths, but at the same time you show that you only can see the verses which are in reference to the Christian's "standing" before God, being raised up together with Him and sitting together with Him in heavenly places. But when it comes to the teaching in regard to the Christian as a "pilgrim" away from his heavenly citizenship you see but do not perceive.

    Take, for example, the verse which you quoted above:

    "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb.10:10).

    This "sanctification" refers to the Christian's "standing" before God. The believer receives this blessing of being "perfected forever" when he is sanctified by the blood of the Lord Jesus. The Chrtistian's deeds or works have absolutely nothing to do with this sanctification:

    "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:14).


    You See but Do Not Perceive

    On the other hand, the Apostle Paul tells us about a sanctification that is in relationship to the Christian's "walk." The difference between the sanctification in regard to one's "walk" an regard to his "standing" is quite stark and most Christians easily understand the difference. But for some reason you just cannot grasp this difference. Here are Paul's words in regard to a Christian's sanctification in reference to his "walk":

    "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour" (1 Thess. 4:1-4).

    Here we see that in regard to a Christian's "walk" the Christian's sanctification is stated in terms of posssesng his body "in sanctification and honor" by abstaining from sin. But you are blind to this sanctification. You continually speak of the sanctification in regard to the Christian's "standing" as sitting in the heavenly realm with the Lord Jesus but you deny the one is regard to the Christian's "walk."

    If the Christian does not heed Paul's warning and sins then he is no longer possessing his body in sanctification and therefore in regard to his "walk" he is not perfected forever.

    The sanctification where the Christian is perfected forever is not something that the Christian has control over. But the sanctification in regard to his "walk" is a sanctification of which a Christian plays a role.

    But you fail to see that the Scriptures speak of two separate and distinct processes of sanctification. Your entire argument in this debate is based on the idea that there is only one type of santification revealed in the Scriptures. When you are confronted with the passages from the Scriptures which speak of another sanctification you see but you cannot perceive.

    "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them" (Mt.13:15).

    Until you open your eyes and believe the truth in regard to the two separate and distinct processes of sanctification you will continue to be confused.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Jerry, you are running down rabbit trails.

    My post had nothing to do with, and in no way do I reject or deny that a believer is to sanctify their bodies and their minds.

    In fact, I affirmed that is absolutely true, just a few posts ago.

    The reason you need to run your little rabbit trails, is because you have lost this debate, and you are flailing punches in the darkness you dwell in hoping to hit something. But, I am not in the dark with with you Jerry. I am speaking from the light watching you make a fool of yourself.

    You accuse me of defining what you call "standing", (what I call "reality"), of failing to see our "walk", yet you see no difference. You think that the "walk" changes the "standing"...

    If the Christian does not heed Paul's warning and sins then he is no longer possessing his body in sanctification and therefore in regard to his "walk" he is not perfected forever.
    (see side note bottom of post)

    You just called the sacrifice of Jesus unclean. You just removed His once and for all sacrifice. You just said that His blood is no better than that of a goat, which must be sacrified everytime you sin. You have a goat god, not a Savior.

    Jerry, this is not an insult, but you are a pervert. Like godrulz, Jesse, tetelestai, and a handful of other self-righteous legalistic morons, you think that only the BIG acts of behavior effect your "walk", and you ignore the fact that there is nothing that you can do that does not fall short of the glory of God. You are so deluded in your pride-filled arrogance, that you actually think that in your behavior you are perfecting your flesh, and that in those rare times that you don't, you simply "confess"!. Just like the other perverts I mentioned, you are teaching sinless perfection, and have no understanding of the Gospel, who Jesus is and what He has done, and who you are in Him. You are lost, walking in darkness, with no fellowship with the Father, the Son, and void of the Holy Spirit.

    But you fail to see that the Scriptures speak of two separate and distinct processes of sanctification. Your entire argument in this debate is based on the idea that there is only one type of santification revealed in the Scriptures. When you are confronted with the passages from the Scriptures which speak of another sanctification you see but you cannot perceive.
    You are a liar. I have already defined the differences in this thread. You have no integrity at all.


    (Side note: I'm sure anyone who can think above a third grade level is going to get a kick out of that statement. The word "forever" is perpetually. You cannot stop something that God says is perpetual. You just stripped the word of it's meaning. It's like when Jesus said that those who have eternal life will never perish, and then claim that they can perish, thus calling Jesus a liar and redefining the word "never".)

  15. #60
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    The word "forever" is perpetually. You cannot stop something that God says is perpetual. You just stripped the word of it's meaning. It's like when Jesus said that those who have eternal life will never perish, and then claim that they can perish, thus calling Jesus a liar and redefining the word "never".
    You still fail to perceive the difference between the Christian's "standing" and his "walk."

    Despite you false accusation I never said that any Christian can perish. In fact, I have repeatedly stated the opposite and you know it.
    ...in no way do I reject or deny that a believer is to sanctify their bodies and their minds.
    But you close your eyes to the state of a Christian when he does not sanctify his body.

    When he sins he becomes defiled and is no longer holy. That is why the Christian is told the following:

    "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of living; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Pet.1:16-17).

    The Apostle Peter tells the Christian to be "holy" in all manner of living. That means that a Christian can sin and become unholy, defiled by that sin. And the Lord has made provision for the Christian who sins and therefore becomes unholy:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    But you deny that the Christian ever needs cleansing from the defilement that is caused by sin. Can you not understand that the sins which any man commits, whether he be saved or not, defiles that man? The Lord Jesus said:

    "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man" (Mt.15:18-20).

    You say that since a Christian sin's were cleansed earlier at his conversion then he no longer needs cleansing. Then you quote verses that are in regard to a Christian's "standing" in order to attempt to prove your assertion while ignoring all the verses that are in regard to his "walk."

    You just cannot seem to understand that any sins that a Christian commits during his "walk" defiles him. Then you deny the very provision which the Lord makes for cleansing the Christian from the defilement caused by sin. Here John, who is a Christian, speaks of this provision to other Christians:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    Here the word "we" must be in reference to Christians since John is included when he says "we," because John is a Christian. And the word "our" must be in reference to Christians, since John says that this epistle is written to Christians (1 Jn.2:12).

    So if words have any meaning the Apostle John is telling Christians to confess their sins, and as a result the Lord will cleanse them from the defilement which that sin caused.

    But you expect others to get stupid and believe you when you say that John is not telling Christians to confess their sins.

    You have given no reasonable explanation why anyone should not believe that when John uses the words "we" and "our" that those words are in reference to Christians.

    And why would the Lord tell His disciples to pray in the following way?:

    "Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil" (Lk.11:3-4).

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; July 12th, 2008 at 11:39 AM.

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