User Tag List

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 65

Thread: One on One: Door and Jerry Shugart on 1 John 1:1-10

  1. #31
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    This is where you make a false assumption, and put words in John's mouth.

    John is simply saying that if he is walking in darkness, then you will know that he is not in fellowship, and therefore he is not a Christian.
    It is you who is making a false assumption by saying that having "fellowship" with Christ is the same thing as being in the Body of Christ.

    But if we look at John's words we can see that when John speaks of being in "fellowship" with the Lord and "walking in the light" he is speaking of "abiding" in Him and "abiding in the light." Notice the similarity:

    In Him

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:4-7).

    "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 Jn.2:6).

    The Light

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another" (1 Jn.1:7).

    "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1 Jn.2:10).

    From the evidence contained in the first epistle of John it seems certain that the word "fellowship" is related to the word "abiding."

    You have provided no evidence at all that would lead anyone to think that the words "fellowship" and "abiding" are not related.

    What do you think John is referring to when he speaks about "abiding" in the light and "abiding" in Him?
    1 John 1:9

    “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
    Despite the plain wording of 1 John 1:9 you say that John is not telling Christians to confess their sins for the purpose of having their sins cleansed. Here is one of the reasons you give:
    You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous or righteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once!
    According to your reasoning a Christian cannot become unrighteous after he is saved. But what about these verses?:

    "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb.12:11).

    How could this chastening yield righteousness to someone who is already righteous?

    According to your reasoning a Christian is cleansed from his sin only once, and that upon conversion.

    But what do you say about this verse where Christians are in view, and we can see that at one point during their Christian lives they are not partakers of the Lord's holiness:

    "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb.12:10).

    There is only one way whereby that a Christian can become "holy" once he is defiled and that is by confession of sins, a confession that brings about the cleansing of sins.

    But you say that no cleansing for these people's condition is possible because upon conversion the Christian is cleansed then and never again.

    Again, we see that your arguments are based on nothing but assertions, assertions that are easily shown to be in error once they are examined under the light of the Scriptures.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; July 10th, 2008 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Jerry, thanks to tetelestai's video, we now know that you are in a non-Christian cult, and can understand why you ignore what 1 John clearly says.

    You believe that the sacrifice of Jesus and that of a goat are the same thing.

    You believe that all the Jews who sacrificed a goat were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.

    You believe that God will punish you the same way he punished Israel if you do not confess your sins.

    You believe that the Holy Spirit will leak out of you and that the seal that God made is faulty.

    There is no need to believe anything you say.

  3. #33
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Jerry, thanks to tetelestai's video, we now know that you are in a non-Christian cult, and can understand why you ignore what 1 John clearly says.

    You believe that the sacrifice of Jesus and that of a goat are the same thing.

    You believe that all the Jews who sacrificed a goat were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.

    You believe that God will punish you the same way he punished Israel if you do not confess your sins.

    You believe that the Holy Spirit will leak out of you and that the seal that God made is faulty.

    There is no need to believe anything you say.
    Door, this is just what I expected from you. Instead of discussing the points that I raised in my last post like a mature Christian you ignored them. Then you make some statements in regard to my beliefs that have no basis in fact.

    I challenge you to quote me where I ever expressed the ideas that you are now attributing to me.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

  4. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Do you denounce the things expressed in the video posted by tetelestai? Do you claim that they are false, even though you have been defending them?

  5. #35
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Do you denounce the things expressed in the video posted by tetelestai? Do you claim that they are false, even though you have been defending them?
    I haven't even watched it. Why have you not answered the points that I made?

    Why are you attempting to derail this debate?

    Changing the subject is not going to help you in anyway.

  6. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Jerry, all your questions have been answered. All your points addressed. You don't agree. I can't make you. What else can I say to change your mind?

    I have shared with you the meanings of verses 1-10. They say, what John and I have said they say.

  7. #37
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Jerry, all your questions have been answered. All your points addressed.
    No they haven't. But I can see why you refuse to even attempt to defend your following statement:
    You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous or righteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once!
    According to your reasoning a Christian cannot become unrighteous after he is saved. But what about these verses?:

    "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb.12:11).

    How could this chastening yield righteousness to someone who is already righteous?

    According to your reasoning a Christian is cleansed from his sin only once, and that upon conversion.

    But what do you say about this verse where Christians are in view, and we can see that at one point during their Christian lives they are not partakers of the Lord's holiness:

    "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb.12:10).

    There is only one way whereby that a Christian can become "holy" once he is defiled and that is by confession of sins, a confession that brings about the cleansing of sins.

    But you say that no cleansing for these people's condition is possible because upon conversion the Christian is cleansed then and never again.

    Again, we see that your arguments are based on nothing but assertions, assertions that are easily shown to be in error once they are examined under the light of the Scriptures.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

  8. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No they haven't. But I can see why you refuse to even attempt to defend your following statement:

    According to your reasoning a Christian cannot become unrighteous after he is saved. But what about these verses?:

    "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb.12:11).

    How could this chastening yield righteousness to someone who is already righteous?
    Jerry, righteousness is a gift. God does not revoke His gift. The gift of righteousness is by faith. It is impossible to be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, just as it is impossible to be in the light and in darkness at the same time, or cleansed and uncleansed at the same time.

    Discipline (renewing the mind with the truth), will yield the FRUIT of righteousness.

    We are already righteous Jerry. The fruit of righteousness is that we know that we will not be judged as the world is judged, because we are legitimate children of God. God does not have unrighteous children.

    For you to claim that God's children are unrighteous, is to claim that Jesus is unrighteous. We have died and our life is hidden in Christ, in God. We are the righteousness of God in Christ.

    But what do you say about this verse where Christians are in view, and we can see that at one point during their Christian lives they are not partakers of the Lord's holiness:

    "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb.12:10).

    There is only one way whereby that a Christian can become "holy" once he is defiled and that is by confession of sins, a confession that brings about the cleansing of sins.
    No Jerry, that is a doctrine of demons. The Bible does not teach anywhere that a believer is to confess their sins for forgiveness. Sins require a death, and Jesus died for our sins ONCE for ALL. You want to crucify Him over and over again. If God continues to see you as a sinner, then you are continuing to sin willfully, and there is no more sacrifice for your sin. (Hebrews 10 ).

    God is renewing our minds (disciplining) with the truth, in order that we can get in our minds what God has done in us through Christ. We are holy as He is holy, and God wants us to stop putting our confidence in our flesh and to fix our eyes on Jesus (which is why he mentions it first thing in the context of discipline). YOU are obsessed with YOU, and think that you please God by what You do, and not by faith. You are preaching a false gospel of self-righteousness and self-holiness.

  9. #39
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Jerry, righteousness is a gift. God does not revoke His gift. The gift of righteousness is by faith. It is impossible to be righteous and unrighteous at the same time, just as it is impossible to be in the light and in darkness at the same time, or cleansed and uncleansed at the same time.
    Door, you are having a difficult time grasping the difference between a Christian's "standing" and his actual "state" or "walk.". Yes, the believer is imputed with the righteousness of God, and "in Christ" he is forever righteous. That is in regard to the Christian's "standing," being raised up with Christ and sitting together with Him in the heavenlies (Eph.2:6-7).

    But we are also at the same time "pilgrims" away from our place of citizenship. And as pilgrims away from home we are not always righteous and when we sin we become defiled. But you cannot seem to see the distinction between the Christian's "standing" and actual "state."

    For instance, the believer is created in true holiness in the New Man, the Body of Christ. He is sanctified through the blood of Jesus Christ once for all, and he is perfected forever (Heb.10:10,14).

    On the other hand, the following verses in regard to sanctification are not in regard to the same sanctification that is in regard to the Christian's "standing" but instead is in regard to his actual "state" or "walk":

    "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God" (1 Cor.4:1-5).

    Surely you can see that the "sanctification" spoken of here is not the same sanctification spoken of at Hebrews 10:10 & 14. A person would have to be walking around with his eyes closed or else he would be able to see the difference. Perhaps now you can see the difference and will refrain from making the same old uninformed arguments concerning a Christian's holiness.

    Now let us look at the following verse:

    "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb.12:10).

    It is obvious that the Christian spoken of here is not a "partaker" of the Lord's holiness until he is chastened by the Lord. That means that until he is chastened he is "unholy." But you say that a Christian is never unholy. In fact, your whole argument is based on your mistaken idea that a Christian cannot be either unrighteous or iunholy.

    You do not even understand the relationship between the father and son in regard to this chastening.You say:
    Discipline (renewing the mind with the truth), will yield the FRUIT of righteousness.... God is renewing our minds (disciplining) with the truth, in order that we can get in our minds what God has done in us through Christ.
    The "chastening" spoken of in the book of Hebrews (Heb.12:5) is compared to a father's discipline of his son. Verse 5 is quoted from Proverbs 3:11-12:

    " My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth" (Proverbs 3:11-12).

    The word "chastening" is translated from the Hebrew word muwcar, and here is how that word is used in regard to the chastening in the father and son relationship:

    "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction (muwcar) shall drive it far from him" (Pro.22:15).

    "Withhold not correction (muwcar) from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die" (Pro.23:13).

    Now that you have a better understanding of the meaning of the word "chasten" at Hebrews 12:5 let us go to the following verses which speak of the same chastening:

    "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body"(1 Cor.11:27-29).

    There were some in the church at Corinth who were sinning by eating the Lord's Supper in a manner described as being "unworthy" and by doing so they were bringing damnation upon themselves.

    Here we can see that they were chastened by the Lord because they would not "judge themselves":
    "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world' (1 Cor.11:30-32).

    There were some who did not judge themselves in regard to the way that they partook of the Last Supper so therefore they were "chastened of the Lord'-- many were weak and sickly and many slept.

    The word "confession" means nothing more or less than the words "judge yourself." "Confession" means "acknowledgement of sins," and that is exactly what happens when a person judges himself in regard to his sinful deeds.

    If these people would have confessed their sins they would have received the forgiveness of those sins and they would not have been chastened of the Lord:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).
    One of the reasons that you are having a diffiocult time understanding these things is your misunderstanding of the meaning of the discipline or chastening of the Lord. You said:
    God is renewing our minds (disciplining) with the truth, in order that we can get in our minds what God has done in us through Christ.
    In His grace,
    Jerry

  10. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Door, you are having a difficult time grasping the difference between a Christian's "standing" and his actual "state" or "walk.".
    No, Jerry, I understand it perfectly. You are attempting to create something that does not exist.

    "As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him"

    I received Him by grace through faith.

    I walk by grace through faith.

  11. #41
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    No Jerry, the God who sent His Son that was stripped naked, beaten, whipped, spat upon, mocked, pierced, and hung on a cross, is not going to "beat me with rods".

    There is no double jeopardy, you do not win 1000.00. In fact, you lose.

    I am sorry that you worship an abusive god, but I do not. And no matter how perverted you intend to keep distorting what the Bible says, your wicked deceitful heart has led you away from the truth.

    I have already fully responded to these lies of yours the last few weeks, and I am not going to allow you to continue to blaspheme the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit with your demonic perversions.

  12. #42
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I have already fully responded to these lies of yours the last few weeks, and I am not going to allow you to continue to blaspheme the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit with your demonic perversions.
    Let see who is perverting the Scriptures. Let us look at these verses again:

    "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Cor.11:27-29).

    There were some in the church at Corinth who were sinning by eating the Lord's Supper in a manner described as being "unworthy" and by doing so they were "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."

    Door, according to your ideas a saved person has no guilt. If you are right then I am sure you can explain how these people could be "guilty" of the body and blood of the Lord.

    And if you are right then they will not ever come into condemnation please tell me how those who were partaking unworthily of the communion meal could possibly be eating and drinking "damnation" to themselves.

    If you are right in your assertions then I am sure you have a reasonable answer to these two points.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; July 10th, 2008 at 08:57 PM.

  13. #43
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    1 Corinthians 10:13-21

    "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

    In Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, He has a great deal to say to them regarding idols, idol temples, and eating meat sacrificed to idols. Even though the Jews had gone through many trials and temptations, God had offered them an escape, and so it is with these in Corinth. Paul tells them plainly to "flee from idolatry". Their culture is permeated with it, and it encompasses nearly everything they do. They have a hard time buying meat from the market that has not been sacrificed to idols. Their fashions imitate those of the temple prostitutes, and drunkenness and fornication are commonplace among their whole society. Corinth was like living on the strip in Las Vegas.

    Paul admonishes them, in that they are all one in the Lord. They all have partaken from the bread of Life. They have all shared in His blood that was shed for their sins. They are in this together, and they have a commonality in purpose. Paul tells them that in and of itself an idol is nothing, but to those who believe that it is something, they are sacrificing to demons. He lets them know that when they purposely eat meat that is sacrificed to idols they are legitimizing it to those who are not partakers with Christ. You cannot share in Christ and share in demons. Do not send that message to those who need Christ. Paul then goes on to talk about the same issues relating to hairstyles and fashion with those who partake in idol worship. Paul makes it clear that he does not want the culture and practices that rule the culture in Corinth to carry over into their fellowships. He wants them to delineate between who they were, and who they are now in Christ.

    Therefore, Paul speaks directly to the times that they come together to share a meal and to fellowship in the Lord.

    There was a diverse group of people who had come to Christ in Corinth; Some rich, some poor; Some married, some unmarried or widowed. Paul had already rebuked them for making divisions among themselves for claiming to be of Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, and now when they are coming together as a group, they are making divisions based on other foolish reasons. Paul will have none of this, Jesus died for all of them, and they are all one in Christ, it is wrong for them to show partiality to those who are so-called "approved", and so he proclaims...


    "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you."


    When they are coming together, those who have abundance are taking it upon themselves to eat and drink before sharing with those who came with nothing. As a result, some are going hungry and others are getting drunk. Paul basically tells them that if eating is what is so important to them, then do it at home. What they are doing is shaming those who have nothing, and it sends the message that they disrespect the church as a whole.


    Paul continues...


    " For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

    Again we see Paul using the same reference within just a few sentences to explain that they all partake from the same body, and that they all partake of the same blood. Whenever they come together to share with those in the body (the church), that it is meant for all, because all share in proclaiming His death. They are to remember that they are all on the same level in Christ. There is no partiality in the body, and they need to keep that in mind when they share with others in the body.

    "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world. "

    Remember how Paul just rebuked them for acting like those who do not know God, by purposely partaking in things sacrificed to idols? They are doing the same thing here with the body (the church). They need to examine what they are doing, because they will be judged by the body (the church). Showing up early and eating all of the food and getting drunk before anyone else can partake, is something that those in the world would do. They need to consider the body as a whole and not come under judgment from the body. And even if the body does judge them, they need to receive it as a discipline from the Lord, in order that they will not be condemned for doing things like the world would do them.

    What does Paul conclude about their abuse of this fellowship?...


    "So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment.

  14. #44
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,891
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,421 Times in 4,816 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Let's look at the verses again and see the consequences of eating the communion meal in an unworthy manner:

    "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Cor.11:27-29).

    We can see that by eating of it unworthily thet were "guilty" of the body and blood of the Lord. They were also bringing "damnation" upon themselves.

    And here is your answer, Door:
    Remember how Paul just rebuked them for acting like those who do not know God, by purposely partaking in things sacrificed to idols? They are doing the same thing here with the body (the church). They need to examine what they are doing, because they will be judged by the body (the church). Showing up early and eating all of the food and getting drunk before anyone else can partake, is something that those in the world would do. They need to consider the body as a whole and not come under judgment from the body. And even if the body does judge them, they need to receive it as a discipline from the Lord, in order that they will not be condemned for doing things like the world would do them.

    What does Paul conclude about their abuse of this fellowship?...

    "So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment."
    According to this they might be judged by the church!

    We are supposed to believe that the words that speak of a "damnation" are in regard to a judgment by the church, and that being "guilty" of the body and blood of the Lord means nothing more than they might be judged by the church.

    That is impossible, as the verses which follow tell a different story:

    "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).

    Here Paul says that for this cause (because the ate unworthily) many "are weak and sickly" and "many sleep."

    Then the next sentence begins with the Greek word translated "for," a conjuction which "addresses the Cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    This words ties them all together--they are sickly and many were put to sleep because they were "judged" by the Lord. And this judgment was in regard to them being chastened of the Lord.

    They were "guilty" before the Lord and they were "judged" and "chastened" of the Lord.

    And that, my friend, proves that your ideas are without merit. It is you who is perverting the meaning of Paul's words in these verses and not me.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

  15. #45
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    352
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    They were weak, sick, and asleep, because they had eaten all the food and drank all the wine.

    "So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment."

    Your false gospel is bizarre, and demonic. You have absolutely no support for you strange and unbiblical views.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us