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Thread: One on One: Door and Jerry Shugart on 1 John 1:1-10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Door, you cannot even understand the most simple things.

    John is declaring things to these people so that they "may have fellowship," not that they already have fellowship.

    The word "may" is "used as an auxlirary to express: possibility and opportunity."

    John is writing to them so that they can have the opportunity to have fellowship-- that they "may have fellowship":

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.1:3).

    You have somehow tricked your mind into believing that the phrase "you may have fellowship" is the same thing as "you have fellowship"!

    Until you grasp the fact that they are not the same thing then your credibilty in this debate is seriously undermined.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    I think you are insulting me, because you know you are losing the debate, so if you can get my goat, you figure it will not continue.

    I think you are pathetic little child, and who lacks integrity, and intelligence.

    John is writing to them so that they can have the opportunity to have fellowship-- that they "may have fellowship":
    The "possibility" and "opportunity" is exactly what John is saying. They can indeed have fellowship with John, if they take the opportunity to accept that John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh.

    Let's read what I said again...

    He is showing them that they have the life. They are in fellowship with the Father, and therefore those to whom he is writing can fellowship with John.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    The "possibility" and "opportunity" is exactly what John is saying. They can indeed have fellowship with John, if they take the opportunity to accept that John is indeed someone who heard, saw, touched, and witnessed Jesus coming in the flesh.
    No, that is not what they must accept in order to have fellowship with John, the same fellowship that John has with the Father and Son.

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:3-7).

    John is saying that in order for them to have fellowship with one another (including the Father and the Son) they must walk in the light.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, that is not what they must accept in order to have fellowship with John, the same fellowship that John has with the Father and Son.

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:3-7).

    John is saying that in order for them to have fellowship with one another (including the Father and the Son) they must walk in the light.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Well then, let's move on, shall we?

    Review:

    “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the Word of life, and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us”

    John confirms that Jesus (the Word of life) is from the beginning and is therefore God manifest in the flesh. He is real and not an illusion. John was a witness of the life, which is the same life that was with the Father and is eternal.

    Important facts about those whom John is writing to:

    • Jesus came to give them the life
    John 10:10, Acts 5:20

    • It was because of a promise He made to them
    1 John 2:25
    2 Timothy 1:1

    • Those who have the Son, have the life
    1 John 5:11-12

    • It is the Spirit that gives them the life
    John 6:63,
    2 Corinthians 3:6

    • The Spirit dwells in His Body, which they are
    1 Corinthians 3:16, Romans 8:9
    1 Corinthians 6:19

    • Through the Spirit, Jesus dwells in them, and they in Him
    Ephesians 1:13
    1 John 3:24
    1 John 4:13

    • They have the life, and they do not come into judgment, but they have passed from death, into life
    John 5:24

    The above verse destroys your entire belief system Jerry. I don't have to continue, but you need to be fully exposed for your false gospel.

    • They are in Christ, and Christ is in them. They are in the Spirit, and the Spirit is them. They are in fellowship with God.
    1 Corinthians 1:9
    2 Corinthians 13:14

    John tells those that he is writing to that they may fellowship with John. He confirms that he is in fellowship with the Father. John has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. John has eternal life, just as they do.

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." 1 John 1:3

    Paul tells us that unbelievers are those who are in darkness, not believers, and that light has NO fellowship with darkness.

    "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?"
    2 Corinthians 6:14

    Those whom John is writing are believers, not unbelievers. They are not in darkness, but in the light. 1 Thessalonians 4:4-5, Acts 26:16-18, John 8:12

    1 John 1:4

    " And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full."

    John wants them to all be of the same mind, and to not be deceived by those who had shared a different message. They can fellowship with John, because he is in Christ, in the light, and in the truth. He is not there to lead them astray.

    Paul had dealt with the same issues, and writes...


    "If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose." Philippians 2:1-2

    The Gnostics were unbelievers 1 John 2:19 not in fellowship with God, they were not in the Spirit, and not in the light, they were in darkness.

    Not so with John and those with John. They are in the Spirit, in Christ, in the truth, and in the light. Those whom he is addressing can fellowship with John.


    1 John 1:5

    "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

    For men to "let their light shine", they must possess that light. Jesus clearly explains that to have the life is to have the light, and they shall not walk in darkness. There is no question that if you are "in the light", you are saved! If you are "in darkness", you are lost and without the life of God.

    Jesus is the light of the world. To have His life, is to be in the light.

    "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:4-5

    "Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12

    "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness" 1 Thessalonians 4:4-5

    "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" 1 Peter 2:9

    "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light" Ephesians 5:6-8

    There is no darkness in the Body of Christ. Those who are in Him are in the light, not in darkness. They walk in the light, because they are in the light, and they have fellowship with God and "may" have fellowship with one another.
    Last edited by Door; July 8th, 2008 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Link issues

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Well then, let's move on, shall we?
    OK, let's move on.

    John wrote to these believers, saying that he was telling them something which would give them the opportunity to be in fellowship with John, the same fellowship which John has with the Father and Son:

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full" (1 Jn.1:3-4).

    Then in the next verse John begins to specify what it is that these people must do in order that they "may have fellowship":

    "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:3-7).

    John is telling these people that in order to enter into fellowship they must "walk in the light." Since they were not previously in fellowship then that means that they were not previously walking in the light, and therefore they were walking in darkness.
    Paul tells us that unbelievers are those who are in darkness, not believers, and that light has NO fellowship with darkness.
    Paul also tells the Christian not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness:

    " And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph.5:11).

    This demonstrates that a Christian can in fact have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. If the Christian has to be told not to have fellowship with these things of darkness then it follows that it is possible that they can indeed have fellowship with the things of darkness. And if a Christian can have fellowship with the works of darkness then it is certain that they can indeed have fellowship with darkness.

    Besides, why would John tell these Christians the following if these words had nothing to do with their opportunity to have fellowship?:

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:6-7).

    Of course these words had everything to do with these believer's opportunity to come into fellowship, a fellowship which they did not then enjoy because they had been walking in darkness.

    But according to you these Christians could not possibly "walk in darkness" or have "fellowship with darkness."

    And what can you say about the following words here in bold?

    "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:3-7).

    Here John uses the word word "us""--"the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    John is writing to Christians and he himself is a Christian so the word "us" must refer to Christians.

    It is also a fact that the Greek word translated "cleanseth" is in the present tense. John is not referring to the time when these Christians were saved or else he would have said, "the blood of His Son has cleansed us from all sin."

    Instead he is speaking of the power of the blood to cleanse the Christian from sin, an idea that is foreign to your mistaken beliefs.

    So John is saying that those who have already been saved are cleansed from all sin.

    And then John tells the Christian just exactly what they must do in order to be cleansed and to be restored back to fellowship with the Lord Jesus:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

    Here when Johnn uses the words "we" and "us" and "our" those words must refer to Christians. What John says here has nothing to do with salvation. As Christians we do not tell unbelievers that if they will confess their sins then the Lord will forgive those sins.

    Instead, Christians understand that before a sinner can be saved he must first hear and believe the gospel. So 1 John 1:9 is not a message for unbelievers but instead it is for those who are already saved.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Paul also tells the Christian not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness:

    " And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph.5:11).

    This demonstrates that a Christian can in fact have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. If the Christian has to be told not to have fellowship with these things of darkness then it follows that it is possible that they can indeed have fellowship with the things of darkness. And if a Christian can have fellowship with the works of darkness then it is certain that they can indeed have fellowship with darkness.

    Besides, why would John tell these Christians the following if these words had nothing to do with their opportunity to have fellowship?:
    Well Jerry, you could not be more wrong.

    Something that constantly eludes your attention is context, and the meaning of words.


    "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; ) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light."

    Paul is speaking of those things in which they were once partaking. The Ephesians were very much into idolatry, and God had delivered them from darkness, and are NOW light in the Lord. To return to partaking in those things that bear no fruit, and in fact are the very things that God will bring about His wrath for, is to partake (fellowship) with the works of darkness. Paul says that they are light, and they are to walk as they are. They cannot walk in darkness. In order to be in darkness there can be NO light. Jesus would have to abandon them in order for them to return to being in the dark. They are not in the dark, but simply have returned to being involved in those things that they did before they were transferred from darkness to light. It's unprofitable for them and others.

    I pointed this out to you in the other thread, but the word for "fellowship" in this verse means sugkoinoneo (partake with), not koinonia (oneness through communion).

    To be in fellowship with God is to be two in communion, in oneness. No believer can be out of koinonia. It's not possible, unless you believe that they leave the Body of Christ.

    Going back to where I proved that being in the light is speaking of believers, and being in the dark is speaking of unbelievers. (Which you reject what the Bible says), let's look at verse 6...


    1 John 1:6

    "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth"

    The Gnostics are in darkness, that much is without dispute. They are unbelievers.
    John is making a comparison between him and the Gnostics. The believers he is addressing can rest assured that John is someone with whom the may fellowship with, because their fellowship is with the Father. If John was to claim that he has fellowship with the Father, and is yet walking in darkness (like the Gnostics are), then John would be a liar, and not doing (Poieo) the truth.

    Again, the context of this introduction of John's message is establishing the fact that John has the same message that they had received, when they had come to Christ. John has the life. John is in fellowship. John is in the light, and not in darkness. John is not like those who deny that Jesus has come in the flesh. They may fellowship with him, where they cannot fellowship with unbelievers who are not walking in the light.


    1 John 1:7

    "...but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin"

    Once again, John is affirming and confirming that is in Christ, he is in the light, and they have fellowship with one another. The blood of Jesus has cleansed everyone in His Body from all sin There is no way that you can be "in sin" and "in Christ" at the same time. There is no way that you can be "in darkness" and "in the light" at the same time. Only those who are double-minded would make such a ridiculous claim.

    John points out in 1 John 3:5


    “And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.”

    Those who teach that you can move in & out of fellowship, would also have to believe that you move in & out of light, in & out of life, or in & out of Christ! That is a doctrine of demons, and one that paralyzes believers into a fear of having any hope that God loves them and that He sustains or keeps them. If you are in Christ, then there is no sin in you. Jesus has taken it away, never to be seen again, having cleansed you from sin once for all.

    Jesus is the only One who shed His blood for us. Only His blood can cleanse us from all sin. Again, John is making a comparison, between those who are saved (those to whom he is writing, and himself) and those who are not (the Gnostics).


    1 John 1:8

    "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

    Just as John pointed out in verse 6 that those who claim that they have fellowship, but are in fact in darkness, he know speaks to those who claim that they do not have the sin that needs to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus, that they are deceived. They are lying, and they are not in the light, they are not in fellowship, and they are not in Christ.

    Verse 7 states that Jesus has cleansed us from all sin! Verse 8 cannot possibly be speaking to those who have been cleansed. It would not be a lie to say you have no sin, if all of it has been cleansed. Either we have been cleansed, or we haven't. You cannot have it both ways.

    John now speaks again to those who said they have no sin, and that they must agree with God (confess) that they do have sin, and that He (Jesus) alone is the only One who is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    1 John 1:9

    “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”


    No other verse in the bible has been completely pulled out of context like 1 John 1:9 and used, in my view, to keep people focused on self, rather than on Jesus. Having just examined carefully the context of this letter, it should be quite obvious that John is reaffirming verse 7. The only way we can be in the light is to be in Christ, and the only way we can be in Christ is to be cleansed from all sin. If Jesus has cleansed you from ALL unrighteousness, it is an insult to His sacrifice and His shed blood to confess that you can make yourself uncleansed, that is to undue what He has done. You were unrighteous because you were "in Adam", "in darkness", & "in the flesh". You had no ability to make yourself righteous. You were made righteous by grace through faith in Jesus, and you are NOW “in the light”, “in fellowship”, and “in the Spirit”. You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous or righteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once! "For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" Jesus is not going to be crucified every time you "think" you need forgiveness.


    1 John 1:10

    “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

    John reaffirms that those who claim that they never sinned are calling God a liar, and Jesus is not in them!

    The Gnostics were not in Christ, and John has now put an end to their false teaching, and affirmed that which is true about those whom he is writing and of himself and those with him who were witnesses of the Word of Life being manifested. They are in Christ. They are in the light. They have been cleansed from all unrighteousness. They are in the truth, and they can all fellowship with one another, because their fellowship is with the Father and with His Son.


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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Door, let us look first at 1 John 1:6:

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:6).

    First of all, the word "we" must refer to John and others. And John is a Christian. You yourself admitted that it had to include John when he used the same word earlier:
    When John uses the word "we", he is speaking of himself and those who were witnesses of the earthly ministry of Jesus and His resurrection.
    You also said that Christians cannot walk in darkness:
    Paul says that they are light, and they are to walk as they are. They cannot walk in darkness.
    But John certainly raises the possibility that he can walk in darkness--"If we say...and walk in darkness."

    So you affirm that the word "we" must refer to Christians and then you say that Christians cannot walk in darkness. And now you say:
    If John was to claim that he has fellowship with the Father, and is yet walking in darkness (like the Gnostics are), then John would be a liar, and not doing (Poieo) the truth.
    If John could not possibly walk in darkness then why would he raise the possibility that he could?

    We Declare Unto You

    You are missing the whole point of what John was telling these Christians so that they "may have fellowship':

    "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:5-7).

    The Christians John was addressing were not in fellowship. The reason that they were not is because they had been walking in darkness. In order to get into fellowship they could not continmue to walk in darkness but instead they must walk in light. And once they did that they would be cleansed from their sin.

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:7).

    Let us look at what you said about this verse:
    Once again, John is affirming and confirming that is in Christ, he is in the light, and they have fellowship with one another. The blood of Jesus has cleansed everyone in His Body from all sin
    If John's words here are in regard to a cleansing of sins that happened when these people were saved then John would have said that the blood "has" cleansed, meaning it happened in the past.

    But the Greek word translated "cleanseth" at verse seven is in the "present" tense, which means that it cannot possibly be in reference to these people's salvation. It can only be in regard to a cleansing that takes place after the sinner is saved. And you have no place for such a cleansing by the blood in your theology. Now let us look at the verse which is the heart and soul of this debate:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1 Jn.1:9).

    You said that at verse nine "John is reaffirming verse 7":
    No other verse in the bible has been completely pulled out of context like 1 John 1:9 and used, in my view, to keep people focused on self, rather than on Jesus. Having just examined carefully the context of this letter, it should be quite obvious that John is reaffirming verse 7.
    Yes, the words of John at verse nine are speaking of the same thing of which he spoke at verse seven. And I have already explained that at verse seven the Greek word translated "cleanseth" is in the "present" tense and if that word was in regard to these people's salvation it would be in the "past" tense and not the "present" tense.

    The cleansing of the blood of the Lord and Savior is a cleansing for those who are already saved. Unless you can somehow wave a magic wand and change the tense of the Greek word translated "cleansing" from the "present" tense to the "past" tense then you must admit that you are wrong and I am right when I say that John's words at verse 9 apply to Christians and they apply to the sins committed after they are saved.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Door, let us look first at 1 John 1:6:

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:6).

    First of all, the word "we" must refer to John and others. And John is a Christian. You yourself admitted that it had to include John when he used the same word earlier:

    You also said that Christians cannot walk in darkness:

    But John certainly raises the possibility that he can walk in darkness--"If we say...and walk in darkness."

    So you affirm that the word "we" must refer to Christians and then you say that Christians cannot walk in darkness. And now you say:

    If John could not possibly walk in darkness then why would he raise the possibility that he could?
    Jerry.. Because those whom he is addressing need to know not to listen to anyone who is walking in darkness, even if it was John (which he is not, but they don't know that).

    In other words, it is similar to Paul saying to the Galatians that if he or an angel from hevean preached another Gospel, let them be accursed. Paul is just saying to them not to listen to anyone who is lying to them, he doesn't care who it is.

    It is so very simple, but you get stuck on the preconceived idea that Christians can walk in darkness, when there is no place in the Bible that says they can. This is why you may never understand the text, or that you cannot bear the thought that your religious house of cards will tumble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

    We Declare Unto You

    You are missing the whole point of what John was telling these Christians so that they "may have fellowship':

    "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:5-7).

    The Christians John was addressing were not in fellowship. The reason that they were not is because they had been walking in darkness. In order to get into fellowship they could not continmue to walk in darkness but instead they must walk in light. And once they did that they would be cleansed from their sin.

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:7).

    Let us look at what you said about this verse:

    If John's words here are in regard to a cleansing of sins that happened when these people were saved then John would have said that the blood "has" cleansed, meaning it happened in the past.

    But the Greek word translated "cleanseth" at verse seven is in the "present" tense, which means that it cannot possibly be in reference to these people's salvation. It can only be in regard to a cleansing that takes place after the sinner is saved. And you have no place for such a cleansing by the blood in your theology. Now let us look at the verse which is the heart and soul of this debate:

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1 Jn.1:9).

    You said that at verse nine "John is reaffirming verse 7":

    Yes, the words of John at verse nine are speaking of the same thing of which he spoke at verse seven. And I have already explained that at verse seven the Greek word translated "cleanseth" is in the "present" tense and if that word was in regard to these people's salvation it would be in the "past" tense and not the "present" tense.

    The cleansing of the blood of the Lord and Savior is a cleansing for those who are already saved. Unless you can somehow wave a magic wand and change the tense of the Greek word translated "cleansing" from the "present" tense to the "past" tense then you must admit that you are wrong and I am right when I say that John's words at verse 9 apply to Christians and they apply to the sins committed after they are saved.

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    It is a statement about who cleanses from sin, not the event. Those who are in the light are those who Jesus cleanses from all sin.

    Again, your mind is stuck on a false understanding of the text.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Jerry.. Because those whom he is addressing need to know not to listen to anyone who is walking in darkness, even if it was John (which he is not, but they don't know that).

    In other words, it is similar to Paul saying to the Galatians that if he or an angel from hevean preached another Gospel, let them be accursed. Paul is just saying to them not to listen to anyone who is lying to them, he doesn't care who it is.
    You are wrong. If it was impossible for John and other Chrtistians to walk in darkness then John certainly would not speak of the possibility that they can:

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:6).

    Of course he or any Christian can walk in darkness, or else John would have never spoken of the possibility that a Christian could walk in darknes.

    In the following two verses from the next chapter John expresses the same principle, but this time he uses the word "abide" instead of "fellowship," but the principle is the same:

    "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 Jn.2:6).

    "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1 Jn.2:10).

    If the Christian is abiding or in fellowship with the Lord then he will walk as the Lord Jesus walked and will not sin.

    Buit if the Christian sins then he does not continue to abide or remain in fellowship with the Lord. He is walking in darkness but not according to the light. And if the Christian says that he is abiding in the Lord but at the same time he sins then the truth is not in him. His sins prove that he is not in fellowship or abiding in the Lord.

    But even though John's own words prove that a Christian can walk in darkness you must deny his words so that you can cling to your mistaken ideas.
    It is a statement about who cleanses from sin, not the event. Those who are in the light are those who Jesus cleanses from all sin.
    Let us look at the verse:

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:7).
    From the "context" we can understand that the cleansing by the blood is in regard to "fellowship" and not "salvation." After all, John's words here are in regard to how these Christians "may have" fellowship.

    Secondly, John is telling these Christians something in regard to this fellowship that they "may have," and he says "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    The Greek word translated "cleanseth" is in the present tense and not in the past tense. If John was speaking about "salvation" in this verse he would have said that the blood of Christ "has cleansed" us from all sin. But that is not what he said.

    But you know that if John's words are taken at face value then your whole argument is without merit and cannot be defended. John is telling the Christians that the blood "cleanseth" (present tense) and not that the bood "has cleansed," as would be the case if John's subject was salvation.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You are wrong. If it was impossible for John and other Chrtistians to walk in darkness then John certainly would not speak of the possibility that they can:

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:6).

    Of course he or any Christian can walk in darkness, or else John would have never spoken of the possibility that a Christian could walk in darknes.
    He never did speak of the possibility. You are still pouring your false preconceived mindset into the text.

    There is nothing in that verse that says that a believer can walk in darkness. Nothing. In fact, it says the opposite. It says that anyone who is walking in darkness is not in fellowship with him. He is speaking of the Gnostics.

    The Gnostics were walking in darkness, yet they lied and said they had fellowship.

    IF John was like the Gnostics, and teaching what they teach, and walking in darkness like they are, he too would be a liar if he said he was in fellowship.

    It is one of the easiest verses in the Bible, but because you are walking in the darkness, you cannot see the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    He never did speak of the possibility. You are still pouring your false preconceived mindset into the text. There is nothing in that verse that says that a believer can walk in darkness
    In order for you to say this you must first deny John's plain words and then you must divorce John's words from the "context."

    First, let us examine the context.

    The words of John's which I will now quote are instructions to the people telling them how they "may have fellowship" (v.3):

    "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another" (1 Jn.1:4-7).
    This is all about how these people can have fellowship. And in verses six and seven John indeed speaks about fellowdship. But according to you John is not speaking of the fellowship of the Christians. In order to have any answer you trot over to your bag of tricks and just pull something out of a hat--the idea that verse six is in regard to the Gnostics! You give no evidence to support your assertion and in order to assert such a thing you must ignore the context.
    There is nothing in that verse that says that a believer can walk in darkness. Nothing. In fact, it says the opposite.
    Let us look at John's words again:

    If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 Jn.1:4-7).
    Certainly John is raising the possibility that a Christian can walk in darkness.

    He says that if a Christian says he has fellowship with the Lord but "walks in darkness" then he is lying.

    Why would John even bring up the possibility that a Christian could claim to be in fellowship with the Lord but at the same time be "walking in darkness" if it was not even possible for a Christian to walk in darkness?

    That would make no sense whatsoever.
    It is one of the easiest verses in the Bible, but because you are walking in the darkness, you cannot see the truth.
    Since you do not believe that a Christian can walk in darkness then I can only conclude from your remarks that you do not think that I am a Christian. That certainly fits your modus operandi on this forum. When you can't answer the messsage attack the messenger!

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Jerry... Telling me the same cr@p over and over again, does not change the truth. You don't understand the text. I can't help you with that, because you don't want to know the truth. I can only tell you the truth, I cannot make you smart.

    I KNOW what you think, but I have already explained to you why you are in error, but you don't care. All you care about is walking in darkness. I have given you the light, but you do not want to be exposed, so you choose to remain in the darkness. Can't help you with that either.

    John NEVER says that believers can walk in darkness. It is not in the Bible anywhere! It does not say what you think it says in the verse you keep being confused about.

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth"

    This verse does not say/imply/suggest/ in any way that it is possible for a believer to walk in darkness. It is NOT there. YOU cannot even comprehend a simple sentence. How can you even think that you can understand a whole paragraph, let alone a whole letter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth"

    This verse does not say/imply/suggest/ in any way that it is possible for a believer to walk in darkness. It is NOT there. YOU cannot even comprehend a simple sentence. How can you even think that you can understand a whole paragraph, let alone a whole letter?
    Then why do John's words there suggest the possibility that a Christian can walk in darkness?

    He says that if a Christian says he has fellowship with the Lord but "walks in darkness" then he is lying.

    Why would John even bring up the possibility that a Christian could claim to be in fellowship with the Lord but at the same time be "walking in darkness" if it was not even possible for a Christian to walk in darkness?

    That would make no sense whatsoever.

    Door, we should follow Paul's example and "reason out of the Scriptures":

    "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).

    When it comes to verses that do not fit your ideas you just throw your reason to the wind.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Then why do John's words there suggest the possibility that a Christian can walk in darkness?
    They don't. John NEVER says what you claim he is saying.

    He says that if a Christian says he has fellowship with the Lord but "walks in darkness" then he is lying.
    No, he does not.

    This is where you make a false assumption, and put words in John's mouth.

    John is simply saying that if he is walking in darkness, then you will know that he is not in fellowship, and therefore he is not a Christian.

    John wants to make sure that those whom he is writing to will not make the same mistake again and that it is important that they "test the spirits" to see if they are from God. Those who are in darkness deny that Jesus has come in the flesh.

    YOU are not listening Jerry or you are just plain stubborn. It is blatantly obvious.

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    Jerry, you don't have to agree with my last post, but you are behaving like you don't even understand what I said. That does not speak well of your ability to reason, and it makes me think that I should have debated this with someone who can think.

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