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Thread: One on One: Door and Jerry Shugart on 1 John 1:1-10

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    Arrow One on One: Door and Jerry Shugart on 1 John 1:1-10

    1 John 1:1-10 is the topic.

    A One on One is an informal debate between two posters without the distraction of other posters. Either of you can begin the debate with the first post. When that post is made, a 2 week time limit will start, after which the debate is closed. Have fun!
    grace & peace

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    Thank you Lucky!

    Jerry, I leave the option of who goes first up to you.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Thank you Lucky!

    Jerry, I leave the option of who goes first up to you.
    Door, I appreciate your gracious spirit. Thank you. Since you give me the option I will ask you to go first.

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    Thank you Jerry.

    My apologies to everyone who is familiar with formal debate protocol, as I am not. I will do the best I can.

    Those of you who want to discuss this debate, may do so Here

    The main purpose of this debate is to present our arguments centered around 1 John 1:9, and whether or not believers in Christ (His Church, the Body of Christ) are to continue to confess sins post salvation.

    Jerry will be arguing for the affirmative.
    Door will be arguing for the negative.

    We will be using any passages we choose to make our arguments, but the context of 1 John 1:1-10 will be our primary text, as we dissect it verse by verse.

    Both of us are allowed to give an introduction and outline.

    I (Door) will be going first.

    Introduction and Outline for 1 John 1:1-10

    John is the same John who wrote the Gospel of John, an Apostle, a witness of the crucifixion and of the resurrected Jesus.

    1 John, unlike a letter with a salutation and conclusion, it is written more in the form of a treatise or sermon to correct error and proclaim the truth.

    The audience, I believe, is primarily Gentile believers, as 1 John 5:21 implies. Idols were not an issue among Jewish believers. Nevertheless, the audience is not nearly as important, as John's message that is laid out to establish that there are false teachers who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh 1 John 4:1-3, and that men are sinners 1 John 1:7-10 for whom Jesus died 1 John 2:1-2.

    Since we are only going to be discussing chapter one, I will save the rest of the issues in John's message for another time.

    John is concerned that those whom he is writing have been seduced by some who are not of the faith 1 John 2:19, perhaps teaching Docetism and/or Gnosticism. John needs to make sure that those, to whom he is writing, know that John is someone who actually walked with, spoke with, and touched Jesus. He is a legitimate authority, who has fellowship with the Father through Jesus Christ. John needs to establish that if they (those who are reading or hearing his message) are going to claim to have fellowship with Jesus and with each other, then John needs to make sure to correct any misunderstandings about who Jesus is, and their need for a Savior. There was certainly concern on John's part that some who had been exposed to the false teachers, may or may not be in fellowship with God or with each other. It is clearly on John's mind as he writes this that to believe that Jesus had not come in the flesh, or that men are indeed sinners, would place someone outside of the faith, and since these false teachers had crept in among them, new "converts", may have very well been deceived into accepting a false message.

    Outline

    vs 1 Jesus indeed came in the flesh

    vs 2 Jesus was manifested to John.

    vs 3 Fellowship with God and with one another is through Christ

    vs 4 Joy comes through fellowship

    vs 5 Contrasting light and darkness

    vs 6 Those in darkness are not in fellowship

    vs 7 In light = in fellowship. Jesus cleanses from all sin.

    vs 8 No truth in those who say they have no sin

    vs 9 Must acknowledge that you have sin. Only Jesus can cleanse you.

    vs 10 Saying you have not sinned makes you a liar.


    I will begin with verse 1 after Jerry makes his introduction, unless there are differences that must be addressed concerning our introductions.

    The floor is all yours Jerry!


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    First of all, I would like to express my appreciation to TheologyOnLine and to Door for the opportunity to discuss this very important subject.

    The question we will be debating is whether or not the following verses apply to Christians:

    "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).

    The position that I will defend is that a Christian is told to confess his sin in order to have that sin cleansed by the blood of our Lord and Savior.

    The First Epistle written by John is addressed to Christian readers. Its theme concerns a Christian's "walk" as opposed to the Christian's "position" or "standing" in Christ.

    Walk vs. Standing

    In regard to a Christian's "standing," God "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:6) and our "life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col.3:3). Once a sinner believes he is "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph.4:24) and is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, the day when he will put on an immortal body. So in regard to his salvation the believer will not come into condemnation.

    The Christian's walk is another matter altogether. A Christian can walk in the light or he can walk in darkness. When a Christian walks after the Spirit then he is walking in the light:

    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Ro.8:1-2).

    However, the Christian can indeed "walk" in such a way that is not in the light. That is why Paul says the following to Christians:

    "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour" (2 Thess.4:1-4).

    The Christian who does not heed Paul's words to "possess his vessel in sanctification and honour" but instead engages in fornication is not walking in the light but instead is walking in darkness.

    According to the Apostle John the key to walking in the light is remaining in fellowship with the Lord Jesus, which is the same thing as "abiding" in Him. Let us look at the following verses:

    "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not" (1 Jn. 3:4-6).

    First of all, we can understand that John's words here are addressed to Christians (ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins). Next, John says that "whoever abideth in Him sinneth not." Surely John is not telling anyone that the Christian "sinneth not," because all Christians do sin at one time or another. Instead, John is saying that when the Christian is "abiding" in Him then he does not sin. If the Christian is abiding in the Lord Jesus then he will walk as the Lord Jesus walked:

    "He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked" (1 Jn.2:6).

    "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1 Jn.2:10).

    "Abiding" in the Lord Jesus is synonymous with being in "fellowship" with Him.

    So the theme of John's First Epistle is remaining in fellowship with the Lord Jesus and it is not in regard to salvation issues.

    Outline

    I basically agree with Door's Outline of the first ten verses in 1 Peter:
    vs 1 Jesus indeed came in the flesh

    vs 2 Jesus was manifested to John.

    vs 3 Fellowship with God and with one another is through Christ

    vs 4 Joy comes through fellowship

    vs 5 Contrasting light and darkness

    vs 6 Those in darkness are not in fellowship

    vs 7 In light = in fellowship. Jesus cleanses from all sin.

    vs 8 No truth in those who say they have no sin

    vs 9 Must acknowledge that you have sin. Only Jesus can cleanse you.

    vs 10 Saying you have not sinned makes you a liar.
    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Thanks Jerry!

    If I miss any of your questions, please feel free to ask them until they are addressed.

    As I stated earlier, John was concerned that false teachers had crept in and had disrupted the confidence of many concerning their salvation. There is strong evidence that it was primarily coming from Gnostics and Docetists which were very closely related. The Docetists denied that Jesus could have come in the flesh. They taught that His body was only an illusion as well as the crucifixion. The Gnostics are more diverse in their heretical doctrines, but in regard to this debate, they had this idea that we are all spiritual beings who are trapped in a material world, and that we need to discover the divine spark that exists in each of us and acquire an esoteric spiritual knowledge within us. They claim that Jesus was sent to reveal to us this gnosis (knowledge) through experiences that would free us from the material world. They denied that Jesus is God the creator, and that life does not come to those who believe in Jesus, but is already present in everyone. The idea that man is basically good permeates their teaching and they deny that men are sinners. They believe they can simply push out the darkness by overcoming it with the light within. Today Gnosticism is manifested through Christian mysticism practices, like having a "Christ consciousness", a "divine spark" or "contemplative prayer".

    Here in John's message , he uses the word "know" 38 times. It is a primary theme from chapter 2 on, and incorporates his reason for writing...

    "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." John 5:13

    John wants to solidify in their minds what they do know, and that those who are disturbing them do not know something that they do not know. Jesus has indeed come in the flesh, and those who deny that He has, are not in fellowship with them.

    "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." 1 John 4:1-3

    John starts his message wanting to re-establish his credentials and to confirm the basics of what he had previously shared and has now been disrupted. That is why he begins this message closely paralleled to the Gospel of John. There may have been many among those whom he is writing who had believed and accepted a false gospel, and were not in fellowship with God. John cannot assume that they are walking in the truth. He must clarify the basics again. He intends to make a comparison of what he teaches with what others have claimed that is false. They are liars, and John needs to expose their lies.

    I will be using the NASB primarily, as it is the version I am most familiar with.

    1 John 1:1

    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.

    John begins his letter here in much the same way he started what we know as the Gospel of John, and in fact closely related to Genesis 1. Jesus was from the beginning. All things were created by Him and for Him Colossians 1:16. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. He is Almighty God who has come in the flesh.

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
    John 1:1-2

    When John uses the word "we", he is speaking of himself and those who were witnesses of the earthly ministry of Jesus and His resurrection. They had literally heard Jesus speak, they had seen Him with their eyes, and they had touched Him and held them with their hands. He is very real, and not an illusion.

    "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." Luke 24:39

    "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth” John 1:7

    Jesus is the Word of life.

    "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" John 1:3

    Jesus is the light that shines in the darkness. It is not in every man, but in Christ alone. To be in Jesus is to be in the light.

    "And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    There may have been many among those whom he is writing who had believed and accepted a false gospel, and were not in fellowship with God.
    Door, I agree with almost all of what you said. You did a good job of explaining the circumstances that lead Peter to write his letter to these Christians. However, I would like to bring your attention to your words that I quoted above. Are you saying that those "who had believed and accepted a false gospel" were never saved?

    I cannot believe that this can be true, especially since John says the following to them:

    "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).

    Those who received John's letter had already been saved earlier when they first believed the gospel.

    I do think that some of them who were already saved were deceived by the Gnostic heresy of which you spoke, and more than likely they were responsible for spreading that false teaching. That is what defiled them and that is why they needed cleansing. However, if we are to believe what John said in this epistle we can only conclude that his letter and exhortations were directed to saved people and only saved people.

    Again, this letter is in regard to one's "fellowship" and "walk" and not in regard to one's salvation. There is a difference:

    "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" (Gal.5:25).

    Since we know that these people had already had their sins remitted we can conclude that at the same time they had been "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9). That happened when they first believed the gospel and were "justified by faith" (Ro.5:1). The theme of John's letter is not in regard to justification but instead it is in regard to sanctification:

    "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn.1:7).

    1 John 1:1-2

    "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)" (1 Jn.1:1-2).

    Here the subject is the Lord Jesus Christ. John and the other Apostles had seen and heard Him. In verse two John says that "the life was manifested" or revealed. The words "the life" refers to the Person of Jesus Christ, Who said:

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (Jn.14:6).

    Then John speaks of showing the Christian "that eternal life which was with the Father."

    Just as John earlier referred to the Lord Jesus as "the life" he is now referring to Him as "eternal life."

    Dr. Zane C. Hodges, who previously served as Chairman of the New Testament Department at Dallas Theological Seminary, says that the words "the life" and the words "eternal life" are in regard to the Lord Jesus in His incarnation:

    "The Life which the apostles proclaimed is intensely personal. Not only has that Life appeared, but it is nothing less than the eternal life, which was with the Father and appeared to people. The Incarnation is unquestionably in view" (Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament [Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], p. 883).

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    I concede the point that John is addressing Gentile believers. In fact, I already said the same thing. My point was that in the midst of them there was certainly going to be new converts whose only exposure to a message about Christ was through the false teachers. As I pointed out earlier...

    It is clearly on John's mind as he writes this that to believe that Jesus had not come in the flesh, or that men are indeed sinners, would place someone outside of the faith, and since these false teachers had crept in among them, new "converts", may have very well been deceived into accepting a false message
    .

    1 John 1:2

    ...and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us

    My question for you is, do you believe that John is proclaiming the life to them as a commentary to reestablish the foundations of the faith that had been disrupted, or do you think that John is just further giving his credentials that they will accept him as someone worthy of hearing?


    Jesus said He came to give us Life! This Life that was made known to John and what he is proclaiming to those he is writing is the same Life that the Father has, and that the Son has, and that we have or can have! The Life is God! It is not mental assent about God through some special spiritual knowledge.


    “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself.” John 5:26

    “And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” 1 John 5:11-12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I concede the point that John is addressing Gentile believers. In fact, I already said the same thing. My point was that in the midst of them there was certainly going to be new converts whose only exposure to a message about Christ was through the false teachers.
    Why would you be pointing out that "in the midst of them there was certainly going to be new converts whose only exposure to a message about Christ was through the false teachers"?

    I see nothing in the epistle that addresses this point, much less in the first ten verses. Everything in the epistle is addressed to believers so therefore every exhortation is directed at believers.
    My question for you is, do you believe that John is proclaiming the life to them as a commentary to reestablish the foundations of the faith that had been disrupted, or do you think that John is just further giving his credentials that they will accept him as someone worthy of hearing?
    I believe that verse one is intended to reestablish the fact that Jesus came in the flesh, something that the Gnostics denied. John countered this denial by his own experiences, saying that he had actually seen, heard and touched the Lord Jesus. Then at verse two is identifying that Person Whom he had seen, heard and touched:

    "For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)" (1 Jn.1:1-2).

    In verse two John says that "the life was manifested" or revealed. The words "the life" refers to the Person of Jesus Christ, Who said:

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (Jn.14:6).

    Then John speaks of showing the Christian "that eternal life which was with the Father."

    Just as John earlier referred to the Lord Jesus as "the life" he is now referring to Him as "eternal life."

    The words "eternal life" are words that denote the Person of Jesus Christ, Who "was with the Father." So when we read the words "eternal life" in this epistle they can either mean Jesus Christ or they can mean the "eternal life" which an individual Christian possesses, depending on the context.

    Here John is speaking of the eternal life which a believer possesses in himself, based on the fact that the believer is baptized into the Son:

    “And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” 1 John 5:11-12

    But at verse two John employed the words "eternal life" as a direct reference to the Person of Jesus Christ, "that eternal life which was with the Father."

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    I think it is foolish on your part to claim that no unbeliever that was exposed to the teachings that John is addressing has ever read 1 John, or that God had John write the letter so that only believers would ever hear it or read it. When Paul wrote the Galatians, you cannot prove that no Judaizers heard the message of Paul's warning to the believers. Even though, as I already stated, 1 John WAS WRITTEN TO GENTILE BELIEVERS, it is absurd to suggest that none of the false teachers caught wind of John's warning, or those who had been deceived by them. It's not like it was a secret message.

    Nevertheless, if it makes you feel any better, it has nothing to do with anything I'm going to have to say about the text, it was just an observation that John had concern that what was being taught could, in fact, produce false believers, just as the Judaizers could have in Galatia. To suggest that ONLY believers can be deceived by Gnostics is nonsense. If you want to put everything in a tidy box to maintain your faith, feel free, it doesn't effect mine to concede your claim.

    1 John 1:3

    “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

    John reiterates the importance that they were indeed witnesses and that he now is proclaiming this life to them that they may have fellowship with John, for John's fellowship is "indeed" with the Father and His Son Jesus.

    Those who are in Christ are in fellowship with Him and are preserved blameless unto the end.


    “I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:4-9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    I think it is foolish on your part to claim that no unbeliever that was exposed to the teachings that John is addressing has ever read 1 John, or that God had John write the letter so that only believers would ever hear it or read it.
    That is not what I am saying. We are discussing what John is speaking about and to whom his words are directly addressed.
    When Paul wrote the Galatians, you cannot prove that no Judaizers heard the message of Paul's warning to the believers. Even though, as I already stated, 1 John WAS WRITTEN TO GENTILE BELIEVERS, it is absurd to suggest that none of the false teachers caught wind of John's warning, or those who had been deceived by them. It's not like it was a secret message.
    Again, the subject of this debate is in regard to exactly what John is saying and whom he is saying it to and not to what some unbelievers might get from it.
    To suggest that ONLY believers can be deceived by Gnostics is nonsense. If you want to put everything in a tidy box to maintain your faith, feel free, it doesn't effect mine to concede your claim.
    Again, I am attempting to stay with the subject of this debate and the subject is not in regard to what some unbelievers might understand from John's words. If you want to get off subject that it up to you but I want to make it plain that these off subject comments of yours have nothing to do with the subject we are discussing.
    1 John 1:3

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”
    Evidently there were some Christians who were not in fellowship with John and the Father and the Son. Otherwise, why would John be telling them things so that they "may have fellowship" with John and the Father and the Son?

    John reiterates the importance that they were indeed witnesses and that he now is proclaiming this life to them that they may have fellowship with John, for John's fellowship is "indeed" with the Father and His Son Jesus.

    Those who are in Christ are in fellowship with Him and are preserved blameless unto the end.


    “I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:4-9
    Evidently Paul was confident that these believers at Corinth would be "blameless" at the coming of the Lord Jesus because the testimony of Christ was "confirmed" in them" (v.6). But Paul certainly did not think that all believers will be blameless on thst day, but only those who continued in the faith grounded and settled:

    "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Col.1:21-23).

    Paul tells these Christians that they will be presented "unblamable" if they continued in the faith grounded and settled. Here are Paul's words concerning Christian's who do not have a faith "grounded and settled":

    "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (1 Tim.5:8).

    Certainly a Christian who does not provide for his own family will not be presented blameless on the day when the Lord Jesus appears, and that is because his faith is not grounded and settled.

    That is why John tells the Christian that if they do not "abide" in the Lord Jesus at His coming then they will be ashamed:

    "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming" (1 Jn.2:27-28).

    If every Christian will be presented "blameless" at His coming then why would some Christians be "ashamed before Him" then?

    In His grace,
    Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; July 7th, 2008 at 12:35 PM.

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    Jerry... If I am warning you about false teachers and false teaching, would you think that I was doing it solely for your benefit, or because it is likely that you might spread that same false message to others.

    Do you honestly believe that John did not have that in his mind whatsoever when he wrote his message?

    As far as John was concerned, what the Gnostics said would never be spoken by anyone again? Why do you think that John goes into great detail about loving your brother, if it was not important what you tell your brother, or anyone else?

    Nevertheless. We agree to disagree. I'll stick with my view that John was concerned that the message would be like leaven and that is one of the reasons for writing the letter, and you stick with his audience was believers for no apparent reason.

    Paul certainly did not think that all believers will be blameless on that day, but only those who continued in the faith grounded and settled:

    "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Col.1:21-23).
    John speaks of these same people who do not continue. The evidence that they do not is that they were not believers. They professed to be "in the faith", but were not.

    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.". 1 John 2:19

    Just as there are many on this site who claim to have been believers, so there were when Paul wrote this letter to the Colossians. Many hear the Gospel, which is how faith comes, but many deny the faith.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

    In order for God to place blame on the Body of Jesus, He has to take sin into account, and in order for God to hold you accountable to sin, you have to be under the Law that reveals sin.

    Here are Paul's words concerning Christian's who do not have a faith "grounded and settled":

    "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (1 Tim.5:8).
    This is not speaking to individuals but to a congregation, that does not care for those in the church (specifically widows) that cannot care for themselves. It is the household of faith that they deny by not meeting their needs.

    That is why John tells the Christian that if they do not "abide" in the Lord Jesus at His coming then they will be ashamed:

    "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming" (1 Jn.2:27-28).
    You really need help in your reading skills. The ones who will be ashamed are those who are not abiding. That verse in no way indicates that those who are abiding can stop abiding, but just compares them to unbelievers who do not abide.

  18. #13
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Those who are in Christ are in fellowship with Him and are preserved blameless unto the end.
    Door, according to you all those who are "in Christ" are in fellowship with the Lord Jesus.

    But let us look at the following verse:

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.1:3).

    You admit that the ones whom John is addressing are believers, those already "in Christ."

    It is obvious that those Christians that he is writing to were not in "fellowship" because he is writing to them for the purpose that they "may have fellowship with us."

    The Christians to whom he is addressing his words were "in Christ" but at the same time they were not in fellowship with John and the Father and the Son. But according to you if one is "in Christ" he must be in fellowship with the Lord Jesus.

    If those who were "in Christ" were in fellowship with John and the Father and the Son then why does John tell them that they "may have fellowship" with all?

    That obviously implies that they were not in fellowship.

    Your whole argument is based on the idea that these Christians were in fellowship but if we are to believe John's words they were not:

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.1:3).
    You really need help in your reading skills.
    No, it is you who needs help! If you think that these people were in fellowship despite the fact that John says his letter is written so that they "may have fellowship" then you either need a new pair of glasses or you need to go back to elementary school to improve your reading comprehension skills.

    Now here is my question for you, Door.

    If these people were already in fellowship then why would John say that he is writing to them so that they "may have fellowship" with him as well as the Son and the Father?

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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    Very simple Jerry.

    John is establishing in the first few verses (that you already agreed with) that John was a legitimate authority, having been a witness to the fact that Jesus had come in the flesh.

    “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the Word of life, and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us”

    He is showing them that they have the life. They are in fellowship with the Father, and therefore those to whom he is writing can fellowship with John.

    “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

    Paul tells us that light has no fellowship with darkness, and John is making certain that they know that John is someone with whom they can fellowship with, because his fellowship is with the Father. The Gnostics were in darkness, and were not in fellowship with the Father.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    He is showing them that they have the life. They are in fellowship with the Father, and therefore those to whom he is writing can fellowship with John.
    Door, you cannot even understand the most simple things.

    John is declaring things to these people so that they "may have fellowship," not that they already have fellowship.

    The word "may" is "used as an auxlirary to express: possibility and opportunity."

    John is writing to them so that they can have the opportunity to have fellowship-- that they "may have fellowship":

    "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.1:3).

    You have somehow tricked your mind into believing that the phrase "you may have fellowship" is the same thing as "you have fellowship"!

    Until you grasp the fact that they are not the same thing then your credibilty in this debate is seriously undermined.

    In His grace,
    Jerry

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