Lucifer and the Ancient Earth

Derf

Derf

Well-known member
jamie said:
There's not a physical resurrection before the second resurrection.
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[Rev 20:5-6 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

A "first" resurrection must be because there is at least one more.

Here's the second, along with the reason why it's good to be part of the first:
[Rev 20:12, 15 KJV] 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ... 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

jamie said:
Well no wonder God loves him and wants the best for him.

I just always thought an adversary was someone who works against you.

Like all the angels, Satan works for God.
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That's why God cursed Satan in Gen 3:14, promising to crush his head.

And I suppose that's why the angels in Jude 6 are in "everlasting chains", because they just did what God told them to do.

Makes one not really want to work for God, don't you think.
 
jamie

jamie

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Derf said:
Makes one not really want to work for God, don't you think.
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Satan is for our benefit and if you resist him he will go away.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

I suppose you think God didn't know Lucifer's future from the moment he was created.

I suppose you think Satan could not cease to exist in the blink of an eye.

Some adversary. Resist him and he will flee from you.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
jamie said:
Satan is for our benefit and if you resist him he will go away.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

I suppose you think God didn't know Lucifer's future from the moment he was created.

I suppose you think Satan could not cease to exist in the blink of an eye.

Some adversary. Resist him and he will flee from you.
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Why would I resist something that is beneficial to me?

Did God know Satan's future when he was first created? If Lucifer was created good, as described in Ezekiel, and he's only doing God's work, then why would God cause such misery to befall him, like throwing him in the lake of fire? Do you think God makes stuff that turns from its original purpose and needs to be punished, just because He likes to punish?

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jamie

jamie

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Derf said:
Did God know Satan's future when he was first created? If Lucifer was created good, as described in Ezekiel, and he's only doing God's work, then why would God cause such misery to befall him, like throwing him in the lake of fire?
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What is the "lake" of fire? Do you know?

Do you even want to know?

Satan's future is in his hands.

Jesus Christ died for all sin, even Satan's.

Satan will suffer eternal death only by his choice.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
jamie said:
What is the "lake" of fire? Do you know?

Do you even want to know?

Satan's future is in his hands.

Jesus Christ died for all sin, even Satan's.

Satan will suffer eternal death only by his choice.
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If Satan has an option to repent, it is never revealed in the bible. Do you have another source to offer?

But you said earlier that Satan was doing what God wanted him to. Thus he has no sin, according to you.

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jamie

jamie

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Derf said:
But you said earlier that Satan was doing what God wanted him to. Thus he has no sin, according to you.
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Satan is unwittingly serving God, not that he means to or intends to.

It's just that we are able use his evil for our benefit.
 
jamie

jamie

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Derf said:
I thought you said Satan could choose his destiny. Now you're saying he is destined to die? Which is it?
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Satan has sinned, but Jesus died to save sinners.

It's not God's will that anyone should die.

God has set before all of us life and death.

It's our choice.
 
jamie

jamie

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Derf said:
So you agree now that Satan fits the definition of an adversary?
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He is only an adversary to the extent we allow him to be.

He is certainly not an adversary to God unless you think of a mosquito as an adversary.

But then God's Spirit is a repellent.

Why are you focusing on a minor issue?
 
beameup

beameup

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chair said:
Read the whole chapter, then tell us who this is about.
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You fail to understand prophecy or how a passage can contain a second subject.
Rabbi's of old were not so handicapped, and could clearly observe when the subject
in a passage abruptly changed to reveal a deep truth. This is especially true when
looking for revelations concerning Messiah. You are handling the Tanakh like it was
a man-made novel, and not the inspired word of Ruach Elohim.
"can't see the forest for the trees" applies in your case.
 
C

chair

Well-known member
beameup said:
You fail to understand prophecy or how a passage can contain a second subject.
Rabbi's of old were not so handicapped, and could clearly observe when the subject
in a passage abruptly changed to reveal a deep truth. This is especially true when
looking for revelations concerning Messiah. You are handling the Tanakh like it was
a man-made novel, and not the inspired word of Ruach Elohim.
"can't see the forest for the trees" applies in your case.
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Funny how you use the "Rabbi's of old" to bolster your very non-Rabbinic approach to the Bible and the Messiah.

Texts can have layers of meaning, but that doesn't mean it is free season on grafting your favorite pagan myth on a Biblical text. Sorry.
 
beameup

beameup

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chair said:
Funny how you use the "Rabbi's of old" to bolster your very non-Rabbinic approach to the Bible and the Messiah.

Texts can have layers of meaning, but that doesn't mean it is free season on grafting your favorite pagan myth on a Biblical text. Sorry.
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"rabbis of old" refers to pre-70 AD. After 70AD, there was a mad-scramble to "re-write" Judaism, because prior to that it was based upon the shedding of blood (without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin). Then there was a further (ongoing) attempt to disprove and discredit Yeshua of Nazareth. However, if you live long enough, you might see the reestablishment of Mosiac Judaism and the sacrificial system.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, until iniquity was found in thee. - Ezekiel 28:14-15
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Do you seriously think this is about the "king of Tyre"?
 
beameup

beameup

New member
chair said:
Ah. OK. So how about some quotes and references to these rabbis?
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You've had almost 2,000 years to erase traces of pre-70AD Mosaic Judaism.
In order to do that, you have to essentially "throw out" the Torah.
Now, what do you have left... some sort of "tribal identity"?? :rotfl:
 
beameup

beameup

New member
chair said:
So everything you "know" about these rabbis is just made-up stuff in your head?
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"The Way" (faith in Yeshua Messiah) is 100% a 1st century sect of Judaism.
There were believing rabbis in the 1st century and there are believing rabbis in Israel today.
Why don't you talk to some of your fellow Jews of the Messianic "Sect of the Nazarenes" about it?

God told you to expect Messiah in the beginning of the 1st century CE.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks [490 years from Artaxerxes I edict]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. - Daniel 9:25 [see Nehemiah]
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