John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

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daqq

Well-known member
marhig said:
I think what I find hard to believe, is that others will judge people who don't believe in the trinity as not belonging to God and they say that they belong to Satan and are going to hell. Yet this isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. I couldn't condemn anyone to hell, and I have hope that everyone will enter into heaven. I don't understand how people have become so high and proud that they can look down on others who love God in this way, and they don't know their hearts.

There are those who believe that because others believe as they do they are saved, but many could have a heart very far from God, it's not what we say, but what we do that shows how much we love God. And he is judging all of our hearts.

Jesus taught us to love and forgive, show kindness and mercy and bring the love of God to others. He didn't teach us to condemn each other to hell.

I believe that heaven and hell are a state, and that we can enter into them in the here and now, hell being in outer darkness under the control of Satan, and heaven being in the glorious light of God and our hearts being protected and cleansed by him, and the way to him us through Christ Jesus. Many think this world is the be all and end all, with their "you only live once" mindset. But this life is temporal, and to know God is to walk in the light and once we know God, then this world and the works of it should mean nothing, our flesh should be dying, (which is death to self) and we should be living by the will of God, wanting to please him, being a living sacrifice and bringing the love of God as Christ to all we meet, regardless of who they are, or what they believe, or what they do to us. We are to show them the love of God which Christ Jesus showed perfectly and he's our example and God is judging us on what we do and what we say.

God loves us all, I couldn't condemn anyone to hell, I'm just flesh and it's not my place to do so. I hope that God forgives those who do this.
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What they fail to realize is that they are still within the framework of a "Law mindset", as if to say, "You do not believe this, you have not done that, therefore you are judged as going to hell", and in this they show themselves nothing more than modern day Pharisees imprisoned in the gall of bitterness and probably also the bondage of iniquity. That is not to say my judgment, (or to single anyone out), but the tree is known by its fruits. If it speaks and judges like a Pharisee it is probably a Pharisee regardless of the outer trappings and shiny whiteness on the outside of the cup. :)
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ben Masada said:
If Jesus declared to be the son of God, he could not have claimed to be the Messiah because, as a leaned Jew, he knew that God could not be from the Tribe of Judah.
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You are aware, aren't you, that the Lord Jesus also said that He is the Son of Man?

Are you not aware of what the angel said to Mary about her son:

"And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:30-33).​
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
daqq said:
What they fail to realize is that they are still within the framework of a "Law mindset", as if to say, "You do not believe this, you have not done that, therefore you are judged as going to hell", and in this they show themselves nothing more than modern day Pharisees imprisoned in the gall of bitterness and probably also the bondage of iniquity.
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No, we are only following what Paul said to do here in regard to false teaching:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim.4:2-4).​

The idea that the Lord Jesus is not God is a fable and it is based on a denial of what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus here:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

Of course if the Lord Jesus is not God then He would have made it plain to Thomas that He is not God. But instead here is what He said:

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (v.29).​

If the Lord Jesus is not God then will someone explain to me why Jesus did not correct Thomas.

Thanks!
 
steko

steko

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Ben Masada said:
He did already. He sent us a Prophet called Habakkuk with the truth that "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One." (Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Since the day God's message through Habakkuk came to me, I have embraced the collective concept of Messiah. Now, if you want to go logical, the Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a PEOPLE before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
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You have no Messiah.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
No, we are only following what Paul said to do here in regard to false teaching:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim.4:2-4).​

The idea that the Lord Jesus is not God is a fable and it is based on a denial of what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus here:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

Of course if the Lord Jesus is not God then He would have made it plain to Thomas that He is not God. But instead here is what He said:
"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (v.29).​

If the Lord Jesus is not God then will someone explain to me why Jesus did not correct Thomas.

Thanks!
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What you quoted from Paul is exactly what happened with the Romish church. As for Thomas someone else already made a very good point about elohim and all the different ways it has been used in the scripture; for even Yeshua says, "Is it not written in your law, 'I have said, you are elohim'?" And Yeshua expounds this passage from the Psalm by saying that it is written to those to whom the Logos-Word of Elohim had come; and in the same breath he says that the scripture cannot be broken. So then, has the Logos-Word of Elohim come to you yourself? If the Logos-Word of Elohim has come to you, and you claim to have the Word of Elohim, (as no doubt you do), then the Father says you are an elohim, (but you shall die like a man, and fall as one of the sariym-princes). Now be careful, brother elohim, for the scripture clearly says that you shall have no elohim beside the Father, and that includes yourself, O you little "e" elohim. :)
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
steko said:
You have no Messiah.
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I agree with you; we don't have the Messiah but for the reason that we are the Messiah. I believe in the collective concept of Messiah. What makes me happy about that concept is that I am not alone. Prophet Habakkuk 3:13 says, "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. The logical side of this concept is that the Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies; are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a PEOPLE before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
You are aware, aren't you, that the Lord Jesus also said that He is the Son of Man?
Are you not aware of what the angel said to Mary about her son: "And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Lk.1:30-33).
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You are aware, aren't you that Mat. 1:18 is about the Greek myth of the Demigod? Do you know what is a demigod by definition? It is the son of a god with an earthly woman. In the case of Jesus, Mary. Jesus was a Jew and, the Greek myth of the demigod is non-existent in Judaism. That's the strongest evidence that the authors of the NT, especially the gospels were Hellenists former disciples of Paul.

Mr. Shugart, your man was Paul, not Jesus. Paul was your Messiah by proxy, not Jesus. The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach not the NT which was the gospel of Paul. A man never met the other and, the NT, Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise. Why this hunger for a man who never had any thing to do with Christianity?
 
steko

steko

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jamie said:
But Mary wasn't. That's what counts.
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The right to the throne is through Solomon, not Nathan.

The bloodline is through Mary and that's necessary, but so is the Kingly lineage.

They both count.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ben Masada said:
Mr. Shugart, your man was Paul, not Jesus. Paul was your Messiah by proxy, not Jesus. The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach not the NT which was the gospel of Paul. A man never met the other and, the NT, Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise. Why this hunger for a man who never had any thing to do with Christianity?
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Evidently you are not aware that the "good news" of Christ which Paul preached was given to him directly from the risen Lord Jesus Christ:

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal.1:12-13).​
 
steko

steko

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jamie said:
Why is that?
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2Sa 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
2Sa 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
2Sa 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
2Sa 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

1Ki 1:28 Then king David answered and said, Call me Bathsheba. And she came into the king's presence, and stood before the king.
1Ki 1:29 And the king sware, and said, As the LORD liveth, that hath redeemed my soul out of all distress,
1Ki 1:30 Even as I sware unto thee by the LORD God of Israel, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne in my stead; even so will I certainly do this day.

1Ki 2:12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Jerry Shugart said:
Evidently you are not aware that the "good news" of Christ which Paul preached was given to him directly from the risen Lord Jesus Christ:

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal.1:12-13).​
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Which proves Ben's point of you being a devotee of Paul's gospel over Jesus' gospel. Its all about Paul, your 'faith' in his gospel, isn't that correct?
 
jamie

jamie

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steko said:
1Ki 2:12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
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What does any of this have to do with Solomon's older brother? Nathan wasn't promised David's throne.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
freelight said:
Which proves Ben's point of you being a devotee of Paul's gospel over Jesus' gospel. Its all about Paul, your 'faith' in his gospel, isn't that correct?
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No, since Paul got the gospel from Jesus Christ then it is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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jamie

jamie

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steko said:
Uh...I think that was the point.
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The point is Mary was a descendant of David through Nathan. That throne will go to Jesus forever, not Solomon.

Solomon had his time and we'll see him at the second resurrection.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Paul and HIS gospel......

Paul and HIS gospel......

Jerry Shugart said:
No, since Paul got the gospel from jesus christ then it is the gospel of jesus Christ.
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Well, there are some who recognize a problem with that regarding Paul,
see here (Bet Emet Ministries).

Jesus taught a different gospel than Paul focusing more on the 'kingdom of heaven' in our midst, as well as one more friendly to the Jewish law and the prophets, as the gospel of Matthew relates, which may of course been biased since it was written for a Jewish audience. Paul came later and claimed to have had an 'encounter' with Jesus, but only saw a light and heard a voice, it was but a visionary experience, and then formulated his own gospel based on his own personal revelations after that, a good mix of his own Jewish background/scripture, albeit allegorically interpreted, mystery religion motifs, greek and gnostic philosophical overtones, and other elements distancing his teaching further away from Jewish law and customs. But key-note, was his boast that it was 'his' gospel, a noteworthy description...as well as the fact that he proclaimed his own apostleship,- none of the original apostles affirmed his apostleship,...Jesus already chose 12, and one was replaced by Mattias. Paul pretty much rode in on his own horse after trying to fit in with the original 12 (yet butting heads with them a lot, especially with Peter), but ended up crafting his own message palatable to the Gentiles, since most of the Jews sought to exile him.

One could argue each were operating under different dispensations, as the MAD folks do,...but others recognize this differential in the gospel messages of Jesus and Paul. It happens that even among messianic groups who use the Bible (OT & NT),...that Paul is either accepted and resolved by within some interpretational-context, or Paul is outright rejected as a true apostle of Jesus,...there are different points of view there. Paul really throws a monkey wrench into the mix ;)

Jesus Words Only - another good study resource.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
God pointers......

God pointers......

SaulToPaul said:
Father (of God), not Father of God.
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As I noted earlier here,....it is kinda redundant, but so goes the orthodox Trinitarian formula. Each person must be (of God) since they share one divine essence. However when dealing with the Universal Father...He is the only original God Being, from which all else springs and is upheld, so to say that the Father is (of God) is redundant, since He is very God of very God. All else is the offspring of The Father, even if you include persons in an original Godhead (even though they are somehow still simultaneously eternal/infinite with the Father, one of those Trinity mysteries ;))....yet the Father is ever the First Source and Center of all that is, since He has no beginning but is the One that begins or brings into being all. Of course you know that,..but just showing the circularity of the formula ;)
 
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