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Thread: A dillema for the "moral" Absolutist...

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    If I say that all 10 strangers should be shot, you can give your last comment and we can close the thread!


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    Quote Originally Posted by koban View Post
    For some reason, you appear to be placing the responsibility for the outcome on the person who has to decide instead of on those forcing the decision and doing the actual killing.


    I wonder why?

    Accute observation of you - like I said before I want to see the reasoning behind the answers given, and the only way to truly test their reasoning is to put them in a position where they must hold two sets of lives in their hands and see which one they opt to save. The gunmen are just a sort of "plot device" to help make the abstract a bit more concrete.
    "When you realize what a joke everything is being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense" - Edward Blake

    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

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    Hey Punisher please change your slogan to:

    Punishing logic since October 2006
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    It depends on the person being held captive. I would consider their wishes on the matter. If it is a person who would have a hard time living with themselves knowing they are [indirectly] responsible for the death of 10 people, then I would prefer the lives of those 10. I'd like to believe that if it were me at gunpoint, my loved one would let me die to save the 10 people.


    If it were my child,the dilemma gets harder. My #1 priority is making sure they have a future, but eventually, they will learn of what their continued life cost others, and may regret my decision, especially if I am successful in instilling a sense of morality in them. But even this is on a sliding scale. Replace the 10 with 2 old men, and the decision becomes easier. Replace the 10 with a million other children, and the decision becomes easier once again.

    It looks like the "Absolutists" here will refuse to answer, since any answer will damn their untenable position. Much easier to attack the question.

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    If it's a choice between me, my fiancee, and ten strangers, I'd say it's pretty simple. The strangers die.
    If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire.
    --George Monbiot




    Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
    --Homer J. Simpson

  6. #21
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mighty_duck View Post
    It looks like the "Absolutists" here will refuse to answer, since any answer will damn their untenable position. Much easier to attack the question.
    Hey retard... I already answered. Are you going to prove to be as big a moron as Punisher?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mighty_duck View Post
    It depends on the person being held captive. I would consider their wishes on the matter. If it is a person who would have a hard time living with themselves knowing they are [indirectly] responsible for the death of 10 people, then I would prefer the lives of those 10. I'd like to believe that if it were me at gunpoint, my loved one would let me die to save the 10 people.


    If it were my child,the dilemma gets harder. My #1 priority is making sure they have a future, but eventually, they will learn of what their continued life cost others, and may regret my decision, especially if I am successful in instilling a sense of morality in them. But even this is on a sliding scale. Replace the 10 with 2 old men, and the decision becomes easier. Replace the 10 with a million other children, and the decision becomes easier once again.
    So, you are admitting that you find some lives to have more worth than others - the 2 old men being worth less than that of the children? If that's so, you are heading in a direction similar to the one I took pondering this dillema.

    Quote Originally Posted by mighty_duck View Post
    It looks like the "Absolutists" here will refuse to answer, since any answer will damn their untenable position. Much easier to attack the question.
    So it appears, but I'll allow a little more time for an answer.
    "When you realize what a joke everything is being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense" - Edward Blake

    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Hey retard... I already answered. Are you going to prove to be as big a moron as Punisher?
    Are the ad homs really necissary? Your answer could possibly be interpreted as an attempt to dodge the question as you implied that you would do nothing - that's not what I read into it, but can see how one can come to that conclusion.
    "When you realize what a joke everything is being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense" - Edward Blake

    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

  9. #24
    Old Timer mighty_duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Hey retard... I already answered. Are you going to prove to be as big a moron as Punisher?
    This is your "answer":

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    You never do evil so that good might come of it.
    Which is a non-answer.

    You could choose the ten, choose the one, or choose not to cooperate, in which case everyone dies, and so the greatest evil is achieved by your actions.

    You are put in a situation where no matter what you do, evil is done (including inaction). You refuse to accept that, and attack the question and anyone who asks it (very mature ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher1984 View Post
    I'll take that as "I wouldn't play along with the crazy gunmen" - in which case everyone dies. Congratulations, you just got everyone killed.
    And therefore what????

    I have proved that this is no moral dilemma for me or for any other moral absolutist. Everyone is going to die sooner or later and I am not going to participate in the murder of any innocent human. So I let the killers be killers and I die an innocent man with no blood on my hands.

    You simply do not do evil so that good may come of it.

    Your "moral dilemma" has proved to be a dilemma made for morons.
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    If said person doesn't answer, and the gunmen shoot everyone, who is doing the evil?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mighty_duck View Post
    You could choose the ten, choose the one, or choose not to cooperate, in which case everyone dies, and so the greatest evil is achieved by your actions.
    You are wrong and you are a fool.

    You are like a junior high school kid who hasn't really thought this through.

    The greater evil would be for me to actively participate in the crime, which would make me a criminal and add to the tragedy for the victims.

    I like to sing a little Tom Petty sing when I think about morons like you guys....

    Well I won't back down
    No I won't back down
    You can stand me up at the gates of hell
    But I won't back down

    No I'll stand my ground, won't be turned around
    And I'll keep this world from draggin me down
    gonna stand my ground
    ... and I won't back down

    Chorus:
    (I won't back down...)
    Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (and I won't back down...)
    hey I will stand my ground
    and I won't back down

    Well I know what's right, I got just one life
    in a world that keeps on pushin me around
    but I'll stand my ground
    ...and I won't back down

    (I won't back down...)
    Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (and I won't back down...)
    hey I will stand my ground
    (I won't back down)
    and I won't back down...

    (I won't back down...)
    Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (I won't back down)
    hey I won't back down
    (and I won't back down)
    hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (and I won't back down)
    hey I will stand my ground
    (and I won't back down)
    and I won't back down
    (I won't back down)
    No I won't back down...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    And therefore what????
    And thus your inaction cost everyone involved their lives - like I said before, the gunmen are just a plot device to make the abstract concept more concrete

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    I have proved that this is no moral dilemma for me or for any other moral absolutist. Everyone is going to die sooner or later and I am not going to participate in the murder of any innocent human.
    And sooner or later the sun is going to grow into a red giant and fry all life on earth - but that doesn't imply that we should all commit suicide right now, does it? You only have one life (no one-ups, save points, respawns or continues) and bringing it to a premature end to make a mere statement when you have the power to prevent it accomplishes nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    So I let the killers be killers and I die an innocent man with no blood on my hands.
    Except the blood of the person/persons that could have been set free had you not been stubborn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    You simply do not do evil so that good may come of it.
    I'm sure that in some "perfect" world this may be the case - but we dont live there now, do we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Your "moral dilemma" has proved to be a dilemma made for morons.
    And since you were unable to give a half-decent answer to the dillema, what does that make you?
    "When you realize what a joke everything is being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense" - Edward Blake

    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher1984 View Post
    So, you are admitting that you find some lives to have more worth than others - the 2 old men being worth less than that of the children? If that's so, you are heading in a direction similar to the one I took pondering this dillema.
    I view morality, and all judgments for that matter, to be on a weighted scale. If we are absolutely forced to make a decision, then of course every life has a weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher1984 View Post
    So it appears, but I'll allow a little more time for an answer.
    I've tried it before, and got only these types of dodges.

    You may have more success with a similar scenario, where one is forced to do the greater good instead of choose the lesser evil (which amounts to the same thing).

    Consider this:
    Our band of evil ethic terrorists have captured 10 men and your loved one, and poisoned them. They put the 10 and the one in two separate locations, and given you the antidote. You only have time to reach one group. It is the middle of the desert, so you won't be able to get help and save all of them. What do you do, save your loved one or save 10 people?

    [absolutist]
    Dodge the question! (And you're an idiot!)
    [/absolutists]

    My answer would remain exactly the same.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    You are wrong and you are a fool.

    You are like a junior high school kid who hasn't really thought this through.

    The greater evil would be for me to actively participate in the crime, which would make me a criminal and add to the tragedy for the victims.

    I like to sing a little Tom Petty sing when I think about morons like you guys....

    Well I won't back down
    No I won't back down
    You can stand me up at the gates of hell
    But I won't back down

    No I'll stand my ground, won't be turned around
    And I'll keep this world from draggin me down
    gonna stand my ground
    ... and I won't back down

    Chorus:
    (I won't back down...)
    Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (and I won't back down...)
    hey I will stand my ground
    and I won't back down

    Well I know what's right, I got just one life
    in a world that keeps on pushin me around
    but I'll stand my ground
    ...and I won't back down

    (I won't back down...)
    Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (and I won't back down...)
    hey I will stand my ground
    (I won't back down)
    and I won't back down...

    (I won't back down...)
    Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (I won't back down)
    hey I won't back down
    (and I won't back down)
    hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
    (and I won't back down)
    hey I will stand my ground
    (and I won't back down)
    and I won't back down
    (I won't back down)
    No I won't back down...
    You do know that this would ring hollow in the ears of the deceased's loved ones, do you?
    "When you realize what a joke everything is being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense" - Edward Blake

    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche

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