ECT The Contradictory Pursuit of MAD

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Please quote the specific verses of which you are speaking.

Thanks!
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I did earlier. 19-29. See your reference tools on how the NT uses this psalm. Burn the reference tools that don't pay attention to how the NT uses the OT.

But that group by itself doesn't matter! Rom 15:3 says that the suffering guy at the end is Christ!!! You have no business saying it is David or some kingdom era priest or what ever you think. ROm 15 says it is Christ. The whole thing is Christ. It always is fulfilled in Christ. It always was meant to be fulfilled that way. It is not a Davidic theocracy. David will not be reincarnated. That is Davidolatry. It is Christ, because he (David) called him Lord, so how can he be his son?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
I did earlier. 19-29.
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So this prophecy is supposed to be referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, who suffered on the Cross:

"The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him" (Ps.89:22-23).​

What is said there is contradicted by the facts of His death upon the Cross so I cannot believe that these verses are in regard to the Lord Jesus.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Interplanner said:
I did earlier. 19-29. See your reference tools on how the NT uses this psalm. Burn the reference tools that don't pay attention to how the NT uses the OT.

But that group by itself doesn't matter! Rom 15:3 says that the suffering guy at the end is Christ!!! You have no business saying it is David or some kingdom era priest or what ever you think. ROm 15 says it is Christ. The whole thing is Christ. It always is fulfilled in Christ. It always was meant to be fulfilled that way. It is not a Davidic theocracy. David will not be reincarnated. That is Davidolatry. It is Christ, because he (David) called him Lord, so how can he be his son?
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In that, you are correct.

Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Jerry Shugart said:
So this prophecy is supposed to be referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, who suffered on the Cross:

"The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him" (Ps.89:22-23).​

What is said there is contradicted by the facts of His death upon the Cross so I cannot believe that these verses are in regard to the Lord Jesus.
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Psa 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
Psa 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psa 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
Psa 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
Psa 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
Psa 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
Psa 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
Psa 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psa 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

You have to see Jesus with his Bride (not the Jews)who follow firstly the same rejection and then the same exaltation with Him.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

LA
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
Psa 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
Psa 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psa 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
Psa 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
Psa 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
Psa 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
Psa 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
Psa 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psa 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

You have to see Jesus with his Bride (not the Jews)who follow firstly the same rejection and then the same exaltation with Him.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

LA
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Jerry must not be aware that Christ ultimately was victor and made 'Christ and Lord.' Merely the two highest titles in the universe. The coronation of that took place in the resurrection. David's sons (89:30+), on the other hand, have been humiliated. This again makes the 'how can he call him his son?' question very vital to our conversation. Jesus meant to break the connection.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Jerry must not be aware that Christ ultimately was victor and made 'Christ and Lord.' Merely the two highest titles in the universe. The coronation of that took place in the resurrection. David's sons (89:30+), on the other hand, have been humiliated. This again makes the 'how can he call him his son?' question very vital to our conversation. Jesus meant to break the connection.
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Are you still saying that these words from Psalm 89 are referring to the Lord Jesus and not David?:

"The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him" (Ps.89:22-23).​

That did not happened while the Lord Jesus walked the earth.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Are you still saying that these words from Psalm 89 are referring to the Lord Jesus and not David?:

"The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him" (Ps.89:22-23).​

That never happened while the Lord Jesus walked the earth.
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The end of the story is the story, Jerry. CHRISTUS VICTOR!!! He was utterly forsaken but raised higher than all men. You are being way too literal and not graduating from type to archetype, or shadow to reality, or copy to reality. Rom 15:3 says the insulted person of Ps 89's ending was actually Christ.

These things are fulfilled in Christ, not in David or his sons. that's why 'how can he call him his son?' is asked.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
The end of the story is the story, Jerry. CHRISTUS VICTOR!!!
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How can you say that this in "bold" never happened to the Lord Jesus on the Cross?:

"The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him" (Ps.89:22-23).

And when did the LORD ever beat down Hisv foes before His face?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
These things are fulfilled in Christ, not in David or his sons. that's why 'how can he call him his son?' is asked.
Click to expand...

The question is to who exactly is this passage referring, David or the Lord Jesus?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

The throne spoken of here is none other than the "throne of David."

The Lord said the following to Nathan:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:8,13).​

Nathan told David, not the Lord Jesus, to build a house for the Lord's name and that David's throne will be established for ever.

And that matches perfectly what is written here:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the "David" in this passage is the Lord Jesus and not the man David.
 
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L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Jerry Shugart said:
The question is to who exactly is this passage referring, David or the Lord Jesus?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

The throne spoken of here is none other than the "throne of David."

The Lord said the following to Nathan:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:8,13).​

Nathan told David, not the Lord Jesus, to build a house for the Lord's name and that David's throne will be established for ever.

And that matches perfectly what is written here:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the "David" in this passage is the Lord Jesus and not the man David.
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Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

LA
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
Lazy afternoon said:
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

LA
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You are so ignorant that you do not understand a SINGLE verse in all the Bible.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
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So?

Nothing you quoted even hints that what I said here is in error:

The question is to who exactly is this passage referring, David or the Lord Jesus?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

The throne spoken of here is none other than the "throne of David."

The Lord said the following to Nathan:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:8,13).​

Nathan told David, not the Lord Jesus, to build a house for the Lord's name and that David's throne will be established for ever.

And that matches perfectly what is written here:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the "David" in this passage is the Lord Jesus and not the man David.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Right Divider said:
You are so ignorant that you do not understand a SINGLE verse in all the Bible.
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Spoken like a true son of hell.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Jerry Shugart said:
So?

Nothing you quoted even hints that what I said here is in error:

The question is to who exactly is this passage referring, David or the Lord Jesus?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

The throne spoken of here is none other than the "throne of David."

The Lord said the following to Nathan:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:8,13).​

Nathan told David, not the Lord Jesus, to build a house for the Lord's name and that David's throne will be established for ever.

And that matches perfectly what is written here:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the "David" in this passage is the Lord Jesus and not the man David.
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In your opinion.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
So?

Nothing you quoted even hints that what I said here is in error:

The question is to who exactly is this passage referring, David or the Lord Jesus?:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

The throne spoken of here is none other than the "throne of David."

The Lord said the following to Nathan:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:8,13).​

Nathan told David, not the Lord Jesus, to build a house for the Lord's name and that David's throne will be established for ever.

And that matches perfectly what is written here:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations" (Ps.89:3-4).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the "David" in this passage is the Lord Jesus and not the man David.
Click to expand...


10 NT passages use this psalm about Christ, but then theres the answer to the question ' how can he be his son?' right?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
10 NT passages use this psalm about Christ, but then theres the answer to the question ' how can he be his son?' right?
Click to expand...

Do you really think that Nathan spoke to the Lord Jesus about this, even though the Lord Jesus was not even on the earth at that time?:

The Lord said the following to Nathan:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (2 Sam.7:8,13).​

If you think that Nathan told the Lord Jesus this (even though He was not even on the earth at that time) then you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous!
 
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