Genesis 1-3 / Imagery?

6days · Oct 27, 2016

Rondonmonson said:
My "TIME THEORY" is based on study not just guess work. Since the Universe was created, and Earth was Formed 9.2 billion years latter, then the first day had to be 9.2 billion years Old...BECAUSE...

As you say, that is YOUR "theory". However God says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day."

Rondonmonson said:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and Darkness was on he face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
{{ Notice, the Earth was void and without form, that is because God only Spoke it into Creation, it actuality it took 9.2 Billion years to form.

As you say, that is YOUR "theory".* God tells us that He created light, then*formed and filled the earth over the next 6 days. So, yes of course it was dark, unformed and unfilled in the beginning.

Rondonmonson said:
Notice it says there was darkness on the face of the deep ? Well the WMAP/NASA Project, which has mapped out the Universe with Microwaves, says there was darkness on the face of the deep. (Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 380,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce. }}..............WMAP/NASA Microwave Map of the Universe

That is secular opinions, which other secularists disagreed with. For ex. in Progress in Physics, 2007 article titled a radiological analysis by Robitaille. Or from a* Biblical creationist astronomer, read "The Big Bang Fails Another Test" http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j20_3/j20_3_15-16.pdf

Rondonmonson said:
{{ The first stars appear..........Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the Big Bang. SO............When the Bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! }}

Yes, God did know exactly what was happening in the very beginning.* Your "theory" is interesting, but this is what God says "God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.* God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,* to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Rondonmonson said:
God is saying there was Darkness, then Light (Stars formed at 400 million years)...That was the first day. It lasted 9.2 Billion years, give or take a few million years. }}

No... This is what God says about light... and stars...
Gen.1:3 "
Let there be light,” and there was light. 4*God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5*God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Then....16 He also made the stars
19*And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Rondonmonson said:
{{ So, since the Grasses and herb yielding fruits came about around 900 Million Years B.C. to 800 Million years B.C. that becomes the 3RD DAY. }}

As you say, that is YOUR "theory".*
God's Word says in Genesis 1:11*"Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12*The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13*And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day."

Rondonmonson said:
{Seems God set the Seasons the Axis created the perfect Seasons, and that was the fourth day. Probably happened at about the same time as the 3rd day, fairly close imho. The Earth and Moon collided, thus the Seasons were set by God. The Earth can not exist without the Sun, anyone knows that, nor could our other 8 planets.}}

As you say, that is YOUR "theory".* However God tells us that He made the sun, moon and stars* then "there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

Rondonmonson said:
{{ Through a study of Science books and such it is determined that the Sea Creatures have been around much longer than the Land Creatures, and that jibes with Gods account here..............About 550-500 Million years ago the Sea Creatures and fowl came along, and that was the 5TH DAY. It lasted until about 300-250 million years B.C. }}

As you say, that is YOUR "theory".* However you are now destroying the Gospel and the character of God.* You are saying God created through millions of years of death, pain, suffering and extinctions...and having God call it very good. In fact God calls death the final enemy.* The purpose of Jesus shedding His blood, then defeating death, becomes meaningless if death is not a result of sin.

Also... Here is what God actually says about the 5th day.* Gen. 1:21*So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.22*God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”23*And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Rondonmonson said:
{{{ Through studying Science again the land animals/creatures started showing up around 250-300 million years ago. So this was the 6TH day........From 250 million years B.C. until 6000 years B.C. when God created man and rested from His creation. }}}

As you can see... God's Word contradicts secular opinions. He created birds the day before He created the land animals. You are having trouble trying to secularize scripture, since the order and the timelines are vastly different.

Rondonmonson said:
We are now in Gods day of rest or the 7TH DAY............

Again, that is your "theory" but it contradicts scripture. Scripture does not allow for the 7th day to be any different than the other days; *See Ex. 20:11. If it is not a 24 hour day then the Sabbath is a meaningless length of time given to the Israelites.

Rondonmonson said:
that makes more sense than an earth that is only 6000 years old. Or in believing a universe that magically appeared from nothing.

It wasn't "magic"... That is the words secularists*use trying to dismiss God's Word telling us that our omnipotent, omniscient Creator spoke creation into existence.

Rondonmonson said:
Man became man when God imparted him with a Soul, and put His Spirit in us.*

Yes, but don't leave out the part that God created man from the dust (Not through evolutionary processes), and the created Eve from man's rib... all on the 6th day.

Rondonmonson said:
The Universe was not created in 6 Days

Correct... The universe was created in one day, but filled on the 4th day.

6days · Oct 27, 2016

Tattooed Theist said:
Do you have any good lecture sources (video/audio) on young earth?
My issue is that i've been able to study much of the naturalistic view of a billion some odd year old earth but I've only found rather unconvincing sources for young earth.

We grow up being taught billions of years from when are two years old watching Dora the Explorer. Through the entire school system, we are taught only evolution and billions of years. There really is a fight from evolutionists that prevents academic freedom. They teach what to think...not how to think when it comes to our origins. Its amazing that with all 'brainwashing' that thousands of scientists come through rejecting the billions of years paradigm.
There are likely many great videos... I don't have a 'go-to' ready but googled these without actually watching them. If you do watch any, let me know what you think...thanks
First video from a geophysicist...the 2nd link is an astrophysicist. There are also many from physicists, astronomers, geologists, biologists and more.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...DA3C41897F77BA8026BCDA3C41897F77BA8&FORM=VIRE

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...F48592E1F7F0DECF0F06F48592E1F7F0D&FORM=VRDGAR

edit... adding a 3rd one that I think will cover it in a more general sense
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...DF7198D647260355E506DF7198D647260&FORM=VRDGAR

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 27, 2016

Tattooed Theist said:
Do you have any good lecture sources (video/audio) on young earth?
My issue is that i've been able to study much of the naturalistic view of a billion some odd year old earth but I've only found rather unconvincing sources for young earth.

You could start here:

Videos:
https://www.creationscience.com/

Online Book:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html

FAQs
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/PartIII.html

AMR

Rondonmonson · Oct 27, 2016

As you say, that is YOUR "theory". However God says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day."

Again, God doesn't say anything of the such, it is just your bad interpretation, of an Hebrew transcript. It is not a book written in English, its been translated. I have studied the Greek and Hebrew in depth. These KJV only people really don't get it much of the time. I can prove that Daniel 9:27 means nothing like what it says in English when you go by the Hebrew. It actually shows Rev. 13 to be a deep truth, when read properly. It actually says that there will be a FORCED agreement by an ISOLENT MAN, and he will place an Idol in a Wing or corner of the Temple, and when he does this he will stun or shock Israel. And Rev. 13 says that the False Prophet causes all great and small to worship the Image of the Beast or Perish. So understanding the actual meaning is very important.

As you say, that is YOUR "theory".* God tells us that He created light, then*formed and filled the earth over the next 6 days. So, yes of course it was dark, unformed and unfilled in the beginning.

Again, just your lack of understanding. When you get to Heaven, you will see who is right, it will not be a 6 Day Creation.

That is secular opinions, which other secularists disagreed with. For ex. in Progress in Physics, 2007 article titled a radiological analysis by Robitaille. Or from a* Biblical creationist astronomer, read "The Big Bang Fails Another Test" http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j...20_3_15-16.pdf

Such an EPIC FAIL, don't you know that the Big Bang proves God !! Good Grief !! The Scientists 50-150 years ago said that the Universe was Eternal, thus there was no need to it to have been Created. Then when the two Scientists discovered the Big Bang, they had to ADMIT that the universe had a beginning, just like the Bible says, In the Beginning, you are taking our proof and flushing it man. God said let there be an BOOM it came into being. Even Sound has a boom and a certain speed. God commanded it and BOOM. The Big Bang proves God because t proves the universe had a beginning.

Yes, God did know exactly what was happening in the very beginning.* Your "theory" is interesting, but this is what God says "God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.* God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,* to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

That never says he created the Stars and Moon on the 4th Day, it says He set the Seasons on the 4th Day. You can not have an earth held into its orbit without a Sun, our Goal is to reach non-believers, God wants you to learn the facts where you can actually reach people, not some hocus pocus bunk man, they laugh at the 6 day creation story. It is just not a reality, its against the laws of nature, Oil from Dinos takes MILLIONS OF YEARS.....God did not just put it all their to deceive us, DINOS LIVED and died out Millions of years ago. The crater/Asteroid that wiped out the Dinos would have wiped out mankind also. The facts have to be real, I am a preacher of over 25 years, I am not just coming to this conclusion by chance, I have studied this in depth, and no, I do not believe in evolution, it is a lie from the Devil. But I do believe God created the Universe and it has been here billions of years, God creates something and it has already happened, He would not change the laws of Nature to speed things up.

When you get to Heaven you are going to feel deceived. You cant say I didn't try to tell you the truth. I am out, some people just can't grasp things it seems. There is no God that is telling you He created the Universe in 6 Days.....That is coming from some other entity.

Jose Fly · Oct 27, 2016

6days said:
There really is a fight from evolutionists that prevents academic freedom. They teach what to think...not how to think when it comes to our origins.

I hear those darned heliocentrists aren't any better. They also fight against allowing teachers to have "academic freedom" to teach geocentrism.

Its amazing that with all 'brainwashing' that thousands of scientists come through rejecting the billions of years paradigm.

No they don't. Some of your favorites, e.g., John Sanford, make it quite clear that their conversion over to young-earth creationism was a religious conversion and had nothing to do with the actual science.

Crucible · Oct 27, 2016

I believe Earth and animals have been around for billions of years, but do not believe in evolution. It's something I settled on after looking into a guy named Hugh Ross, who among other things, has a PhD in astrophysics and is an old earth creationist.

He suggests that animals didn't evolve- God simply created more as they went extinct. He also concludes that the 'days' in Genesis are strictly in context, just as 'in the day of' would mean an era.

One thing I notice is the surprising number of physicists who aren't very fond of biophysics. One thing they won't tell you is that those like Neil Degrasse Tyson are actually a rare breed- evolution is hardly something kept in check by physicists.

False Prophet · Oct 27, 2016

You must have the biblical code

6days · Oct 27, 2016

Mondonson said:
6days said:

*God says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day."

Click to expand...

God doesn't say anything of the such, it is just your bad interpretation, of an Hebrew transcript....These KJV only people really don't get it much of the time.

It isn't interpretation...and it isn't the KJV. The top translation teams composed of Hebrew scholars have all said the same thing.

Mondonson said:
...don't you know that the Big Bang proves God !! Good Grief !!

Big Bang beliefs contradict God's Word.
BB says earth was a hot molten blob.
God says the earth was water.
BB says stars before earth.
God says earth before stars
BB says billions.
God says days. Etc. Etc.

Mondonson said:
The Scientists 50-150 years ago said ...

Science continues to disprove secular opinions that contradict God's Word.

Mondonson said:
That (Bible) never says he created the Stars and Moon on the 4th Day

You need to read Genesis 1. It says 'He made the stars...there was evening and morning, the fourth day.

Mondonson said:
You can not have an earth held into its orbit without a Sun

You also can't have a man dead in the grave for 3 days return to life... yet that is what God tells us.

Mondonson said:
Oil from Dinos takes MILLIONS OF YEARS.....

Really??? So do dead elephants also produce oil? Of course not, except perhaps in an extreme situation where the animal is rapidly buried deep in sediment protecting it from being eaten by bacteria, and protected from decay due to ooxidation. And.... deep enough for extreme pressure to turn the animal to oil. (Can you think of a situation where much of the worlds vegetation and animals was buried deep in sediment?) BTW...Oil can be produced rapidly in a lab. I think evolutionists just love the way the words "millions and millions" feels on their tongues.
The vast oil reserves and deep coal seams are strong evidences for the truth of God's Word.

Mondonson said:
There is no God that is telling you He created the Universe in 6 Days.....

Ex. 20:11 tells us about the God who created the heavens, and the earth and everything in them, all in six days.

Wick Stick · Oct 27, 2016

Tattooed Theist said:
So, I'm sure this has been discussed in some fashion before, but I searched for recent threads and came up empty handed. This is a topic that, at least where I am geographically, is denied and buried in the depths of heretical theology. To which I cringe and continue the topic to the listers dismay. It needs to be spoken about and considered and I simply don't see or hear other pastors conversing on the topic.

It's a third rail of theology. Touch it and you risk electrocution... or excommunication... or something.

Tattooed Theist said:
Something I've been speaking with several colleagues about recently is the concept of Genesis 1-3 being imagery rather than literal.

Problem #1 - you're talking about two separate texts here, not one.

Gen 1:1 - 2:4 is one complete text.
Gen 2:5 - 5:1 is another complete text.

Are you familiar with colophon statements? Genesis is an compilation of texts, and the demarcation between them can largely be determined by looking at the colophon statements within the book.

Tattooed Theist said:
In the Babylonian story of creation we see an irrefutable connection to what we read in Genesis. It's truly undeniable.

Much of what I have found is that Genesis, rather than a literal story of creation, is a response to the babylonian story of creation. Saying "God created out of love. Creation wasn't created during a cosmic battle of babylonian Gods."

"The many points of similarity between the two traditions is conclusive proof that one story was derived from the other (or that both were derived from a still older original).

Let's focus on Gen 1:1-2:4, the "Hymn of Creation." The connection between The Hymn of Creation and the Enuma Elish is actually even closer than you say. Rather than one being written against the other, I find that they agree almost entirely.

The Enuma is a titanomachy, wherein Tiamat is the titan of primordial chaos and waters. Marduk slays the titan, and uses the body of the chaos-beast to create the world, bringing order rather than chaos.

Back in Genesis, we find that the initial creation of verses 1-2 is a chaotic mass of waters - tohuw says the Hebrew text, and the word is related to the name Tiamat. The rest of the Hymn is devoted to the manner and process by which God brings order to the chaotic mess.

I believe there is another Biblical text that refers to this story - Job 41's Leviathan. Other comparative works include the Illuyanka Encyclical and Hesiod's Works and Days.

Tattooed Theist said:
I'm curious as to, if this is something any of you have studied, what your conclusion was - and why?

I've got a lot of hours in on this one.

Is Genesis 1:1-2:4 imagery or literal? It belongs to the category of muthos.

The story is literally about the creation of the world. But the language used to convey it is full of imagery. I don't believe the ancient Hebrew language had a sufficient vocabulary at the time the story was written to express all the ideas there. Poetic devices have been used to express passage of time on scales that the language had no other means to communicate. Anthropomorphic characters have been used to signify esoteric concepts like 'chaos' and 'order.'

As for the dating, I hold a conservative dating of this passage (but not all of them due to multiple authorship).

Now, if you want to talk about 2:5-5:1, that's an entirely different story. That isn't about the creation of the world. It's about the origins of the Hebrew people.

Jarrod

6days · Oct 27, 2016

Wick Stick said:
I don't believe the ancient Hebrew language had a sufficient vocabulary at the time the story was written to express all the ideas there. Poetic devices have been used to express passage of time on scales that the language had no other means to communicate.

I'm guessing you are trying to muddy the waters to try bring billions of years into God's Word? (Which muddies the purpose of Christ's physical death, and resurrection) Apologies in advance if you are not trying to insert deep time into God's Word.
Although the English language has many more words than the ancient Hebrew, God still spoke clearly in the OT. The English word 'day' has a variety of meanings, yet that one word is easy to understand by the context. The Hebrew 'yom' also has several meanings in scripture but again, is always easy to understand by the context.
EXAMPLE: Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4*This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Two verses... two different meanings of the same word. Easy to understand. Likewise, the meaning of 'day' in Genesis 1 is easy to understand as 24 hour days. We can compare the context to the hundreds of times 'day' is used in the OT...ALWAYS, understood by context. And... we can see how Jesus understood the creation account, knowing that humans were there from the beginning, at the foundation / 6 day creation of the world.

Wick Stick · Oct 28, 2016

6days said:
I'm guessing...

I know... that you aren't an intellectually honest person, and that there's absolutely no point in talking to you about these things.

6days · Oct 28, 2016

Wick Stick said:
I know... that you aren't an intellectually honest person, and that there's absolutely no point in talking to you about these things.

Ok... so rather than my words, or yours... lets just trust God's Words.
Ex. 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Luke 11:50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to...[/quote]

Rivers · Nov 17, 2016

6days said:
Although Genesis has history of being attacked, the majority of fathers of faith right back to the time of Christ accepted Genesis as literal history. Various Bible authors and even Jesus refer to Genesis as literal true history.

I don't think there can be any doubt that the Genesis Creation story was intended to be read as a historical narrative. The issue is how we interpret what it was referring too. It seems that a lot of misunderstanding arises when folks try to impose a global or universal application of the text without considering it was written 4,000 years ago.

Rivers · Nov 17, 2016

6days said:
Ok... so rather than my words, or yours... lets just trust God's Words.
Ex. 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Why do you think there was already "deep waters" (Genesis 1:2) before God ever spoke and there was Day One of the Creation (Genesis 1:3)?

6days · Nov 17, 2016

Rivers said:
*It seems that a lot of misunderstanding arises when folks try to impose a global or universal application of the text without considering it was written 4,000 years ago.

*
Are you suggesting that people weren't very bright back then?*
Scripture was written for people now and then. Every Christian doctrine is foundational on the literal account of a real first Adam...a real first sin...a real curse on our world. When we start adding deep time it undermines the gospel.*

Rivers said:
Why do you think there was already "deep waters" (Genesis 1:2) before God ever spoke and there was Day One of the Creation (Genesis 1:3)?

"Day One"! Yes...In the Hebrew it is 'day one', (a cardinal number) and not called the 'first day'. * I'm not sure if you realize the significance of that wording? *Here is Gen. 1 from Youngs Literal Translation. "1*In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --*2*the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,3*and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.4*And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,5*and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one."

Notice the following days of creation are 'second day', 'third day' etc. (Called ordinal numbers) The significance of the cardinal number for day one, is that it does not allow for previous time.*

Anyways, back to your point. *Rivers..... what are you trying to gain by adding deep time to scripture? *Those verses tell us what happened on day 1. He tells us He created the world formless and empty. He then tells us how He formed and filled the earth over the next few days.*

Ex. 20:11 tells us that EVERYTHING was created in six days.....You seem to think it was only a re-creation?*

BTW.... Welcome to TOL

Glad you found us.*

chair · Nov 17, 2016

6days said:
If a real Adam and real sin are not the cause of pain, suffering and death in our world then the gospel is destroyed and the purpose of Christ's death becomes meaningless.

So you are basically saying "Let's ignore reality because it doesn't fit my theology".

The Hebrew Bible is a holy book. It is a religious text. It isn't a history text or scientific text.

Nick M · Nov 18, 2016

Tattooed Theist said:
How do you account for modern science that very much makes the story of creation an impossibility?

How do you figure?

As a side note, the Holy Bible is the standard. If you pick the dating method whose variables come to 4-20 billion years, you know you are wrong because our standard says other wise.

Rivers · Nov 18, 2016

6days said:
*
Are you suggesting that people weren't very bright back then?*
Scripture was written for people now and then. Every Christian doctrine is foundational on the literal account of a real first Adam...a real first sin...a real curse on our world. When we start adding deep time it undermines the gospel.*

I think people were very intelligent 4,000 years ago. However, there's no indication that the ancient Hebrews were aware of the entire Earth or the extent of the Universe, as we know it. Thus, we should interpret their language with those implications.

6days said:
"Day One"! Yes...In the Hebrew it is 'day one', (a cardinal number) and not called the 'first day'. * I'm not sure if you realize the significance of that wording? Notice the following days of creation are 'second day', 'third day' etc. (Called ordinal numbers) The significance of the cardinal number for day one, is that it does not allow for previous time.

I don't think your interpretation is accurate because it doesn't take into account that there is no "God said .." (Genesis 1:3) until after the land is already covered with "deep water" (Genesis 1:2). The Apostle Peter understood that the heavens and earth were "formed out of water and by water" (2 Peter 3:5).

6days said:
He tells us He created the world formless and empty. He then tells us how He formed and filled the earth over the next few days.*

My understanding is that Genesis 1:1 summarizes what took place during the "six days" (Exodus 20:11. However, the "days" don't start until God spoke in Genesis 1:3. There's nothing to suggest that Genesis 1:2 was part of Day One.

6days said:
You seem to think it was only a re-creation?

No, I simply agree with Peter's understanding that "the heavens and earth were formed out of water, and by water" (2 Peter 3:5).

6days said:
Glad you found us.*

Thanks.

Greg Jennings · Nov 18, 2016

Nick M said:
How do you figure?

As a side note, the Holy Bible is the standard. If you pick the dating method whose variables come to 4-20 billion years, you know you are wrong because our standard says other wise.

So all of the data that scientists have collected is wrong because your favorite book says the earth is 6000 years old. Bulletproof logic.

Nick M · Nov 18, 2016

Greg Jennings said:
So all of the data that scientists have collected is wrong because your favorite book says the earth is 6000 years old. Bulletproof logic.

Where is all this data? The data also shows 6500-770 years old. And the soft tissue from the T-Rex is even younger.

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