Sorry, that was 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
If we listen to God's word we will learn the truth.
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Sorry, that was 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
If we listen to God's word we will learn the truth.
Rosenritter
New member
Robert, if this was the passage you meant, please continue to the next verse:
2 Corinthians 5:19-20 KJV
(19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
If Christ has reconciled the world to God, and this was all that was needed for reconciliation, then why would Paul also need to beseech his audience to be reconciled to God?
The answer is that reconciliation requires more than one person. The Calvinist would have you believe it only depends on the will of God. The truth is that it is a two-party process, it requires both God and man. God must be willing that man be reconciled, and man must be willing to be reconciled. So when you say that all have been reconciled to God, please make sure you don't take this to mean something other than what our divine authors intended to say.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Misrepresenting scripture. You teach that sinners Christ came to save still die in their sins, denying that He is their Saviour !
beloved57
Well-known member
popstheb
Yes, and since all will not be caused to change, Christ didnt die for them, since those Christ died for were reconciled to God Rom 5:10
[FONT="]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
If you dont understand that, you may not be qualified to be on a discussion board where we need reasonable rationale ![/FONT]
Yes, and since all will not be caused to change, Christ didnt die for them, since those Christ died for were reconciled to God Rom 5:10
[FONT="]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
If you dont understand that, you may not be qualified to be on a discussion board where we need reasonable rationale ![/FONT]
popsthebuilder
New member
Please show me the passages that state that all will not be changed.
Please show me the passages that state it is not the will of God for all to be reconciled.
To speak of the rationale of another one must first be rational themselves.
In other words; show evidence for your claims. Not the ones against me per say, but those that I questioned above.
Peace
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beloved57
Well-known member
We know all wont be changed . The cursed Matt 25:41
[FONT="]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The impentitent
[/FONT]Rom 2:5
[FONT="]But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[/FONT]That word impenitent unrepentant, impenitent. A heart that wont change !
Rosenritter
New member
Matthew 6:15 KJV
(15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Revelation 21:7-8 KJV
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If all were changed, then there would be none that were unforgiving, none fearful, and none unbelieving.
popsthebuilder
New member
So you both deny the power and will of GOD?
Is it not stated that it is the will of GOD for all to be saved?
If so, then the only correct interpretation is that regardless of punishment or destruction; ultimately all will return to GOD.
Yes there is a hell. Yes there is the second death. Though punishment may not be eternal, destruction is. This burning up of the chaff will leave only that which is pleasing to GOD.
I would humbly advise that neither of you jump to conclusions. And please do produce scripture saying it is not the will of GOD that all return to HIM.
How does one honestly and logically give a partial response to a two part question? I understand that you had to negate the later question in order to respond, but perhaps you should just not respond in such cases.
I would like to be shown to be wrong.
Please produce scripture to back your claims, and not just partial answers.
Peace
Thank you
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Rosenritter
New member
Your mistake is in thinking that God gets whatever he wills,
Luke 13:34 KJV
(34) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Ezekiel 18:31-32 KJV
(31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
He does get what He wills. He's God, you fool, and he ordained all from the beginning.
popsthebuilder
New member
Indeed, ultimately GOD's Will be done and none against That Will will be able to detour it to any measurable extent whatsoever.
Do you think it isn't the Will of GOD that is responsible for all creation and existence? Do you believe it not the Will of GOD for HIS creation to be free...as it observably is?
Peace
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The bible teaches otherwise...
Isaiah 5 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did not come into My mind.
Jeremiah 19:4 Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent 5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did not come into My mind.
Jeremiah 19:4 Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent 5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
There are many more such passages. In fact, one could rightly say that the bible is the story of God wanting one thing and getting another, over and over and over again.
Rosenritter
New member
So you either deny that Jesus was speaking truthfully in the gospels, or you deny that Jesus was God, from the beginning. Which is it? It's hard to tell because you won't respond to the posted scriptures. Would you please clarify?
Rosenritter
New member
If my response seemed partial to a two-part question, I have a newborn, so I had to type slowly and with few keystrokes last night so my wife could sleep. Prolific words are not always at luxury.
As I was saying before, the question is not whether God is willing that all be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. That is explicitly stated and consistent with the character of Jesus. Your error was in the Calvinist-thinking mindset that God gets whatever he wants, even when such is impossible. Logical contradiction is impossible.
For example, God cannot make a rock so heavy he can't lift it. He can't make a square with only three sides. And he cannot force someone to love him against their will. Such are examples of logical contradictions.
God wants us to learn to love. Love God, love thy neighbor, love one another, love thy enemies. Bless those that curse you, turn the other cheek, preach the gospel to all the world. God is love. Love, by definition, cannot be forced on an unwilling party. Love can be received, but you cannot force someone to give love or truly understand love if they are unloving. If one understands anything from the Bible, the most important part,
1) the LAW (on these hang the law and the prophets)
2) The true nature of God, who he really is (God is love)
3) The most important thing we can possess (Charity is greatest)
then that answer would be LOVE.
Which, by definition, cannot be forced by fiat. God wants all to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. But that truth is not gnostic facts and figures, or mystical secrets, but love. Those that cannot come to a knowledge of that truth cannot be saved. Or more accurately, will not be saved, because God will not permit hatred and evil to infest his kingdom to come.
It is God's will that every one of us come to a knowledge of the truth.
We are capable of preventing God's will, when it comes to us, individually.
It is God's will that we have the exercise of free will.
We can interfere with that choice of God through drugs or suicide.
It is God's will that we have life, and have it more abundantly.
But if this is not possible, at the very least there shall be no more suffering.
It is God's will that there be no more pain nor suffering, that none shall harm any more.
That will prevails, and none shall ultimately be able to detour that any longer. It is written.
It is God's will that we have life, and have it more abundantly.
Those that will be given life shall have abundant life. Those that cannot have abundant life shall no longer live.
Yes and yes? Where are we going with this? I'm still back with "it is written" ... and it makes sense.
Good post!
popsthebuilder
New member
It is written that the Will of GOD cannot be affected by man, not that anything is impossible for GOD. Again it is the Will of GOD for us to be free to choose our own path to some degree. Unconditional love shown in reciprocation of the love of GOD is the command and Will of GOD too. We are in agreement on all these things it seems.
Where we do not agree is on the power of GOD evidently, and that man can ultimately effect the Will of GOD. My entire point was that it is the Will of GOD that all be saved. You confirmed this so thank you. Though we can turn from GOD, we cannot say that we wont return towards GOD. Though there is punishment and destruction for those who willingly and knowingly turn from GOD permanently, that isn't to say that the Will of GOD will be affected by any person. Or that that will is something other than what we have both stated.
Where are we going with this?
Nowhere apparently, as we seem to be in agreement for the most part.
Please reply with a response to any thing you may take issue with.
Peace
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May I butt in?
God does not interfere with man's will. He allows him to do what he will and then reap the consequences of his actions. God is bound by his holy, just, merciful, righteous, nature. He cannot and will not sin against himself. All that God does he does within his holy, just, merciful, and righteous nature, this is why we can trust and believe in him. He always does what is right.
popsthebuilder
New member
Of course. This is a given speaking here.
Peace
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There is a lot of teaching on this Forum that God is something other than holy. A holy God always keeps his promises and his words are like gold. We can rest, trust and believe in what he says and does.
Rosenritter
New member
Wait, let's back up a step there. Since we are confirming agreement and disagreement, where is it written that God's will cannot be influenced by man?
1) If this were true, prayer would be unnecessary, and pointless.
2) This would contradict Christ's own words of how he admonishes us to pray. "Ask, and it shall be given" and his parable of the unjust judge.
3) How would such an interpretation possibly fit with how Jesus responded to the woman of Canaan in Matthew 15:28? He denied her multiple times, except when she persisted. He stated his will, she asked again, and again, and his will changed.
4) Explain why Israel was not wiped out when God said he would destroy them, but Moses spoke to God and asked him to stay his anger?
5) Explain why Nineveh was not destroyed. Forty days, and the city will be destroyed, they were told.
Jonah 4:2 KJV
(2) And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Truth is that the actions of men do change God's will. It is written, with many examples.