Calvinism Verses the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ

God's Truth · Sep 14, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
I don't know where you get that this is righteousness - not in the active way (as I was trying to say in that same paragraph).

It is righteousness to obey God and humble yourself...Our obedience leads us to righteousness see Romans 6:16.

nikolai_42 said:
Nowhere in scripture do I see humility being synonymous itself with righteousness.

If you do not humble yourself you will never enter.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

nikolai_42 said:
Now, in the sense that there is right standing before God - yes, humility is the right posture before Him. But again, it is positional rather than active (and again....Look unto Me all the ends of the earth and be saved....etc...). And our justification is also positional - it isn't our own (referring back to Joshua the High Priest of Zech 3). So at least some of the disconnect here is terminology.

You speak words of men, of false teachers...you say "right standing before God" as if it means something different than we have to do what Jesus says in order for Jesus to put us in him.

nikolai_42 · Sep 14, 2016

God's Truth said:
It is righteousness to obey God and humble yourself...Our obedience leads us to righteousness see Romans 6:16.

If you do not humble yourself you will never enter.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is addressing self-righteousness - looking at one's self and using that as justification for being considered great in God's eyes. The disciples were asking about who was greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Yes...humility is of great esteem in God's eyes. And if you consider that little child, they are totally dependent on their parents - they really can't do anything for themselves. So the one who is great in heaven is the one who has total dependence on God. In the context of conversion, that means NOT coming to God saying anything like "I've done this, this and this, now will you hear me?". But like the publican who simply cast himself on the mercy of God, there is no sense of anything in him that is (in itself) worthy of praise before God. So if one - as soon as he humbles himself happens to look at himself and say "Look at me, I'm humbling myself." that humility instantly disappears. If you find anything in yourself that you were not given by God to recommend you to Him, it is self righteousness.

God's Truth said:
You speak words of men, of false teachers...you say "right standing before God" as if it means something different than we have to do what Jesus says in order for Jesus to put us in him.

When did Saul change his heart to be humble before God?

Robert Pate · Sep 14, 2016

God's Truth said:
You insult James out of your ignorance.

I do not preach circumcision or the observance of special days.

You were taught to say something without meaning.

You might just as well. Why not be a 100% Pharisee and go the whole route? Your half way there.

God's Truth · Sep 15, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
Jesus is addressing self-righteousness - looking at one's self and using that as justification for being considered great in God's eyes. The disciples were asking about who was greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Yes...humility is of great esteem in God's eyes. And if you consider that little child, they are totally dependent on their parents - they really can't do anything for themselves. So the one who is great in heaven is the one who has total dependence on God. In the context of conversion, that means NOT coming to God saying anything like "I've done this, this and this, now will you hear me?". But like the publican who simply cast himself on the mercy of God, there is no sense of anything in him that is (in itself) worthy of praise before God.

You can't get around it, even the publican humbled himself.

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says that. Do you believe him?

nikolai_42 said:
So if one - as soon as he humbles himself happens to look at himself and say "Look at me, I'm humbling myself." that humility instantly disappears.

There isn't a fake way to humble yourself.

nikolai_42 said:
If you find anything in yourself that you were not given by God to recommend you to Him, it is self righteousness.

You were taught by false teachers to shame those who obey God.

It is never ever shameful to obey.

nikolai_42 said:
When did Saul change his heart to be humble before God?

Paul obeyed Jesus and then did not eat or drink for three days and he spent that time praying.

beloved57 · Sep 15, 2016

Robert Pate said:
You might just as well. Why not be a 100% Pharisee and go the whole route? Your half way there.

You both teach salvation by works, by what a person does, so nullifying the obedience of Christ.

beloved57 · Sep 15, 2016

God's Truth said:
Well, almost, for it is more than just admitting you are wrong. It is hating your sin and repenting of it.

That is doing something. Now that you have proven you contradict yourself, why not stop?

What you just said is a lie.

You are calling the words of God 'wrong'.

You are trying so hard to keep defending that which is wrong.
Look at what you are saying...you called doing right as one who does wrong. You cannot get past that unless you repent for saying that.

That is repentance and sorrow for doing wrong.

Jesus oopens the eyes of those who obey. Go ahead and keep going against that and I will show you even more scriptures.

God who knows the heart of those he saves.

Jesus is the Way and tells all those who are thirsty HOW TO BE SAVED.

I am telling all who want to be saved and do not feel saved how to be saved, according to Jesus Christ who says to change to be saved.

You are stopping people from being saved.

You are hindering them.

Those Christ lived and died for are made righteous by His obedience alone Rom 5:19 !

nikolai_42 · Sep 15, 2016

God's Truth said:
You can't get around it, even the publican humbled himself.

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says that. Do you believe him?

Yes. But the point is that it ceases to be humility as soon as you use it as some good thing to present before God to obtain standing with Him.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians 3:11

God's Truth said:
There isn't a fake way to humble yourself.

Exactly!

God's Truth said:
You were taught by false teachers to shame those who obey God.

It is never ever shameful to obey.

It is never shameful to obey. No it isn't. That was the creed of the rich young ruler, too. Look where it got him. It isn't the obedience that is the problem, it's the imperfect obedience that is.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10

If one comes to Christ on the pretext of his own good works, he isn't humbling himself. If you say you have to work to come to Christ, you are coming to Him on the basis of the Law.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:27-28

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:6

In other words, any approaching God on the basis of our good works is holding to the Law. Humbling one's self is not holding to the Law. It is self-emptying and confessing Christ. But...

...I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
I Corinthians 12:3

Only after that is it even possible for one to depart from sin :

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2 Timothy 2:19

God's Truth said:
Paul obeyed Jesus and then did not eat or drink for three days and he spent that time praying.

Would he have done that without first calling Him Lord (I Cor 12:3 again)?

The issue is not obedience, but the basis upon which we present ourselves to God. If we humble ourselves before Him, He will receive us. But that isn't Law...that's faith - which is the gift of God.

God's Truth · Sep 16, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
Yes. But the point is that it ceases to be humility as soon as you use it as some good thing to present before God to obtain standing with Him.

I can hardly believe you said that. Jesus is the way and tells us how to get to the Father, but as soon as someone does what he says, you say it is worthless. I can hardly believe you said that.

God's Truth · Sep 16, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
It is never shameful to obey. No it isn't. That was the creed of the rich young ruler, too. Look where it got him. It isn't the obedience that is the problem, it's the imperfect obedience that is.

You are badly mistaken. God in the flesh was in front of the rich man. What an amazing happening, like no other ever. The rich man did not want to give up his wealth and follow Jesus, God who was right there in front of him. He did not want to join Jesus’ earthly ministry. That is what the rich man did wrong; he did not follow Jesus.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10

If one comes to Christ on the pretext of his own good works, he isn't humbling himself. If you say you have to work to come to Christ, you are coming to Him on the basis of the Law.

James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Love is not harming your neighbor that is how we love our neighbors; we do no harm to them.

If you do not harm your neighbor by not murdering your neighbor, it is good and you have obeyed a commandment of do not murder.

If you do not harm your neighbor by committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, then you have obeyed another commandment.

If you do not harm your neighbor so you do not bear false witness against your neighbor, you have done right and obeyed yet another command.

If you STEAL from your neighbor, you have HARMED your neighbor, AND NOW YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Do you understand now? You obeyed all those commands and were doing right by loving your neighbor and not harming him...but then, you missed up on one. You did not kill your neighbor, commit adultery with his wife, you did not bear false witness against him...but you stole something from him...you have now broke one law and stole...but now you are guilty of breaking the whole law of love your neighbor because you hurt him by stealing from him.

Lazy afternoon · Sep 17, 2016

God's Truth said:
James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Love is not harming your neighbor that is how we love our neighbors, we do no harm to them.

If you do not harm your neighbor by not murdering your neighbor, it is good and you have obeyed a commandment of do not murder.

If you do not harm your neighbor by committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, then you have obeyed another commandment.

If you do not harm your neighbor so you do not bear false witness against your neighbor, you have done right and obeyed yet another command.

If you STEAL from your neighbor, you have HARMED your neighbor, AND NOW YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Do you understand now?

Amazing how you can know those things yet break them all in your replies.

LA

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

The accuser has came into our discussion.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:27-28

That is about the ceremonial works. The Jews could boast that they had the ceremonial works to make themselves clean and the Gentiles did not.

Romans 2:23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

The Jews had the law to boast in.

Galatians 6:13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.

Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--

Did you read that read? That is about not boasting in making ourselves clean with things such as CIRCUMCISION.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
...I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
I Corinthians 12:3

Only after that is it even possible for one to depart from sin :

That scripture is about people speaking in tongues and being concerned if someone was actually saying something bad about Jesus. Paul assured them that no one speaking in tongues by the Spirit of God would say Jesus was accursed.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
The issue is not obedience, but the basis upon which we present ourselves to God. If we humble ourselves before Him, He will receive us. But that isn't Law...

The issue is obedience. Earlier you put down humbling oneself, but now it seems you have added it into the mix. As for you saying it isn’t law:

True believers uphold the law. See Romans 3:31.

We are not without a law.

We are no longer UNDER the law; we have the law written on our hearts and minds, see Hebrews 10:16.

There was a change to that old law, see Hebrews 7:12.

That changed old law is our new law.

All those who are saved have to obey the law, the new law, and the new law is in the New Covenant.

The new law is the law of the Spirit; see Romans 8:2, the perfect law James 1:25.

It is the law that gives freedom, see James 2:12.

It is the LAW that requires faith, see Romans 3:27.

It is the law of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2.

Christ gave us the commands for the New Covenant, and then he shed his blood for the New Covenant. Blood Covenants must be followed exactly.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

nikolai_42 said:
that's faith - which is the gift of God.

Not all have faith because it was taken from them.

Matthew 25:29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

Matthew 25:28
"'So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags.

Matthew 25:27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them."

Mark 4:24 "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

John 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

From the scriptures I see that all men are born with a measure of faith, and that we can either become harder, and what we have taken from us, or more faith can be given to us by hearing about God, learning of Him, and being, convinced, and persuaded.

Robert Pate · Sep 17, 2016

God's Truth said:
Not all have faith because it was taken from them.

Matthew 25:29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

Matthew 25:28
"'So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags.

Matthew 25:27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

Hebrews 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them."

Mark 4:24 "Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

John 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

From the scriptures I see that all men are born with a measure of faith, and that we can either become harder, and what we have taken from us, or more faith can be given to us by hearing about God, learning of Him, and being, convinced, and persuaded.

The "word" in Romans 10:17 is the Gospel. Faith is given to those who hear and believe the Gospel. There is scripture that says faith comes through obedience, because obedience is a work of the law. Paul said, "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

Robert Pate said:
The "word" in Romans 10:17 is the Gospel. Faith is given to those who hear and believe the Gospel. There is scripture that says faith comes through obedience, because obedience is a work of the law. Paul said, "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20.

The works of the law Paul is speaking of are the purification works, such as circumcision, a dietary law, the observance of special days.

Paul would not ever tell anyone that they are saved by faith without obedience.

Bright Raven · Sep 17, 2016

God's Truth said:
The works of the law Paul is speaking of are the purification works, such as circumcision, a dietary law, the observance of special days.

Paul would not ever tell anyone that they are saved by faith without obedience.

Huh? Where do you see obedience here? Not saying that it isn't a good idea. We are saved by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God's Truth · Sep 17, 2016

Bright Raven said:
Huh? Where do you see obedience here? Not saying that it isn't a good idea. We are saved by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by faith---we are saved by faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing...we do not have to do the work of cleaning ourselves by sacrificing animals.

Calvinism Verses the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ

New member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

New member

New member

LIFETIME MEMBER

New member

New member

New member

New member

New member

Well-known member

New member

Well-known member

New member