When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

God's Truth said:

What? You do not know that the saved are put inside God?

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He wasn't talking about the saved but the sabbath as a shadow in His light...

Paul didn't write in that text we are in the light...

Elsewhere it is written we are in Him and He in us...so tell me...do we do what we want? go where we want? when we want? or do what and go where and when He wants...we died to ourselves yes? So well we follow Him to His Sabbaths as He is still Lord of the Sabbath...

clefty said:

And He is teaching us to do His Father's will which is to remember and keep His special day Sabbath...oh and instructing us to pray the Sabbath is kept...even after His return to heaven...

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You are to stay firm in Christ to the end.

We do not have to stay firm in the Sabbath till the end.

clefty said:

oh and instructing us to do as He did which was Keep the Sabbath as He did...as an example

All days are not the same for Him...

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Jesus Christ is our EVERYTHING.

Special days were just shadows.

There is no shadow in Christ.

clefty said:

Why you so on and on about that building...Sabbath was around long before and certainly after it fell apart...as if Sabbath needs a temple...

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Jesus was around before the building and after it fell apart.

You keep putting the shadow up there with Christ.

Shadows go before men and are below them.

clefty said:

You must panic when your watch stops..."oh nooooo!...time is over!!!" LOL

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What?

clefty said:

Right...the temple is destroyed and synagogues remain...your point was he was in jail or beaten for not preaching the old law...which is exactly the false accusation they were trying to slander him with...

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Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted?

They also said he broke the temple law and he did not.

Paul himself says he did not preach circumcision.

Circumcision is the seal for all the purification/ceremonial works.

clefty said:

Are there many other Pharisees and wolfs in sheeps clothing in there...in your rest in Him?

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Pharisees rejected Jesus and upheld the Sabbath. So why are you calling me a Pharisee?

clefty said:

LOL...You insist are at rest...if you are at rest you are not working...and faith without works is dead...the dead are asleep resting in Him...you dead?

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We rest from working at cleaning ourselves. The Jews had to clean themselves and give animal sacrifices to the priest even if they sat where someone sat who had a menstrual cycle or an emission. They had to clean themselves by doing various external washings and the sacrifice of animals, just to go to the temple to worship God, for the temple was where God's Spirit was. Now through just having faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of, we are made clean, and we do not go to a temple because we are the temple.

clefty said:

A temple, especially to a living God, is not at rest...certainly not a tomb...

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Do you not know that the saved become a temple?

clefty said:

He wasn't talking about the saved but the sabbath as a shadow in His light...

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There is no shadow in light.

clefty said:

Paul didn't write in that text we are in the light...

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Paul did write about our being in the light:

Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light

clefty said:

Elsewhere it is written we are in Him and He in us...so tell me...do we do what we want? go where we want? when we want? or do what and go where and when He wants...we died to ourselves yes? So well we follow Him to His Sabbaths as He is still Lord of the Sabbath...

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The Sabbath is a shadow. You will not ever get around that.

God's Truth said:

Covenants have laws that must be followed.

There was a change to that old law, see Hebrews 7:12.

That changed old law is our new law.

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asked and answered...new law of administration o ministration of the same law...

Now we are priests again of the same immutable Law...

All those who are saved have to obey the law, the new law, and the new law is in the New Covenant.

The new law is the law of the Spirit; see Romans 8:2,

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really? we are free to kill and fornicate?

No...we are free from the law of sin and death not God's law...

The law of sin and death is the curse for breaking, or in your case changing Yah's perfect Law...

the perfect law James 1:25.

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yup doing the work His work His way...not just resting everyday...lol

It is the law that gives freedom, see James 2:12.

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For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery,” also said, "Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

You sure you wanna go here? You really think you are free from this? Free to do as you please?

Or as He would do in you...which is in harmony with keeping His Father's will that you obey His Sabbath law...

It is the LAW that requires faith, see Romans 3:27.

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eWhere is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude fthat a man is 9justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since gthere is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

LOL...it was always a Law requiring faith of Gentiles too...

Now go establish it...this law of liberty In Him by faith His way

It is the law of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2.

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So His Law nullifies His Father's? Counters Him? Dividing the house? Nice...

So much for "don't think jots and tittles will be changed..."

You make Him a liar...

God's Truth said:

You are deliberately speaking untruths about me so I will wait for you to clean up this post before I answer any of it.

Come on, Clefty, I was enjoying discussing with you.

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It was the "are we free to kill or fornicate" one wasn't it?

NEVER is all this raucous ever started when discussing whether or not we can kill or fornicate...

(Ok the gays use the "OT law is destroyed" argument to validate themselves)

Only when it is about the Sabbath do people twist themselves and scripture trying to show how in Him we don't have to keep the laws...

As if in Him He would only want us to keep only 9 of the 10...LOL

So are we free to kill and fornicate?

Or in Him do we desire to do as He did?

God's Truth said:

You are to stay firm in Christ to the end.

We do not have to stay firm in the Sabbath till the end.



Jesus Christ is our EVERYTHING.

Special days were just shadows.

There is no shadow in Christ.



Jesus was around before the building and after it fell apart.

You keep putting the shadow up there with Christ.

Shadows go before men and are below them.




What?



Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted?

They also said he broke the temple law and he did not.

Paul himself says he did not preach circumcision.

Circumcision is the seal for all the purification/ceremonial works.



Pharisees rejected Jesus and upheld the Sabbath. So why are you calling me a Pharisee?




We rest from working at cleaning ourselves. The Jews had to clean themselves and give animal sacrifices to the priest even if they sat where someone sat who had a menstrual cycle or an emission. They had to clean themselves by doing various external washings and the sacrifice of animals, just to go to the temple to worship God, for the temple was where God's Spirit was. Now through just having faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of, we are made clean, and we do not go to a temple because we are the temple.



Do you not know that the saved become a temple?

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He remains Lord of the Sabbath...

That means...

clefty said:

It was the "are we free to kill or fornicate" one wasn't it?

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No, it was not just that. It was also you saying I make God a liar. Try to control yourself. I do not speak in such a way to you so do not do it to me.

clefty said:

NEVER is all this raucous ever started when discussing whether or not we can kill or fornicate...

(Ok the gays use the "OT law is destroyed" argument to validate themselves)

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When Jesus came and taught the law for the New Covenant, he did not say it was now okay to murder, fornicate, and be homosexuals.

clefty said:

Only when it is about the Sabbath do people twist themselves and scripture trying to show how in Him we don't have to keep the laws...

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I gave you scriptures about the law of Christ and you claim it means we can do those things. How do you ever get that?

clefty said:

As if in Him He would only want us to keep only 9 of the 10...LOL

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You have more than 9 to keep.

clefty said:

So are we free to kill and fornicate?

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Tell me where you think that Christ said you can do that.

clefty said:

Or in Him do we desire to do as He did?

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Do you get circumcised in the flesh too? Do you observe the other special days? Do you long to sacrifice animals and have and earthly temple?

clefty said:

He remains Lord of the Sabbath...

That means...

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Why don't you take the time to answer the points I made in that post?

God's Truth said:

There is no shadow in light.



Paul did write about our being in the light:

Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light

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...finding out what is acceptable to the Lord...

Show me where Sunday would be acceptable...

The Sabbath is a shadow. You will not ever get around that.

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I don't want to...

I am just glad you aren't saying the Sabbath WAS a shadow...

As with David

"He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty"

Yup...shadows do point to the Substance...and that Substance said if you love Me keep My commandments...

Lucifer too brings light...

maybe the shadows will help differentiate the lights...

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Hebrews 10:1 [ Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All ] The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Galatians 4:10
You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

God's Truth said:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

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Yup they are shadows...still and still point to the substance...And was written to Gentiles keeping the Sabbath...

Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

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Yup on earth as it is in heaven...seventh day is mirrored down here by what occurs up there...

Hebrews 10:1 [ Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All ] The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

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Are coming...he wrote this after He already came...are coming is still to come...when new Jerusalem descends and once again on earth as it is in heaven...no need for blood shed to make perfect as sin will be no more

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

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Yup...He don't change...His promises don't change...His word don't change...His Law don't change...

Did ya catch that?

Oh and Sabbath came from above...made for man...a perfect gift...

Galatians 4:10
You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

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Special days not of Yah...like Christmas...

God's Truth said:

No, it was not just that. It was also you saying I make God a liar. Try to control yourself. I do not speak in such a way to you so do not do it to me.

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But you are...Sabbath is His day He said and now you are saying it's not special in any way...worthless even

When Jesus came and taught the law for the New Covenant, he did not say it was now okay to murder, fornicate, and be homosexuals.

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I know that but well something about grace and law of Liberty and well they do what they want...

Oh BTW...He never said Sabbath was now worthless either...nor did He say Sunday was the new law...

I gave you scriptures about the law of Christ and you claim it means we can do those things. How do you ever get that?

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you...your claims the old laws no longer apply are convincing...

You have more than 9 to keep.

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really? Well let's start with the 10...or nevermind lets skip to the one that says Sunday is the new sabbath...

Tell me where you think that Christ said you can do that.

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I can't because He didn't...but you are the one fussing about the Law no longer applies and sabbath is worthless...

He actually amplified the Law...murder went to anger...adulterous to merely lust...and there is work to do on the Sabbath...healing work saving work resurrection work...

clefty said:

Yup they are shadows...still and still point to the substance...And was written to Gentiles keeping the Sabbath...



Yup on earth as it is in heaven...seventh day is mirrored down here by what occurs up there...



Are coming...he wrote this after He already came...are coming is still to come...when new Jerusalem descends and once again on earth as it is in heaven...no need for blood shed to make perfect as sin will be no more



Yup...He don't change...His promises don't change...His word don't change...His Law don't change...

Did ya catch that?

Oh and Sabbath came from above...made for man...a perfect gift...



Special days not of Yah...like Christmas...

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Sorry that you will not accept the scriptures that say we are in the light and do not observe shadows anymore.

clefty said:

But you are...Sabbath is His day He said

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Are you saying all days do not belong to Jesus?

The Lord of the Sabbath means Jesus is over the Sabbath, because the Sabbath is a shadow.

clefty said:

and now you are saying it's not special in any way...worthless even

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Paul says it is worthless.

clefty said:

I know that but well something about grace and law of Liberty and well they do what they want...

Oh BTW...He never said Sabbath was now worthless either...nor did He say Sunday was the new law...

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Sunday is not the new law.

clefty said:

you...your claims the old laws no longer apply are convincing...

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We have the new law of Christ. The new law is written in the New Testament.

clefty said:

really? Well let's start with the 10...or nevermind lets skip to the one that says Sunday is the new sabbath...

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I do not believe that.

clefty said:

I can't because He didn't...but you are the one fussing about the Law no longer applies and sabbath is worthless...

He actually amplified the Law...murder went to anger...adulterous to merely lust...and there is work to do on the Sabbath...healing work saving work resurrection work...

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You just proved that the Sabbath is for work, even though the old law on the Sabbath says no work.

God's Truth said:

Sorry that you will not accept the scriptures that say we are in the light and do not observe shadows anymore.

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No need to be sorry...resting in His shade is a nice break from the routine...

God's Truth said:

Are you saying all days do not belong to Jesus?

The Lord of the Sabbath means Jesus is over the Sabbath, because the Sabbath is a shadow.

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You clearly don't understand how this lordship thingy works...

And you are attempting to diminish His power and undermine His authority...

There is a clear heirarchy in His kingdom...

Paul says it is worthless.

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unto salvation...but they are rich with other blessings which is why Paul kept it anyway and asked us to do as he did as he did as He did...so I will follow them not you...thanks

Sunday is not the new law.

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well that is a start...

And ends most of this discussion.

Your everyday the same is not very appealing...and not just because it isn't biblical...


[quite]We have the new law of Christ. The new law is written in the New Testament.[/quote] which would change the jot and tittles which we are NOT supposed to think He did

I do not believe that.

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well then when do you meet to worship with others as is instructed...everyday?

Church everyday or not at all...

The early tradition maintained by Him was meeting on the seventh day Sabbath...

You got another gospel...

You just proved that the Sabbath is for work, even though the old law on the Sabbath says no work.

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No He did...He proved there was much to be done on the Sabbath...and there always was...even in the natural world when we rest from physical work our body works to heal...same with sleep...if you workout at all you would clearly understand the need for a routine that includes rest...it is how we were created to do it...

We were created yes?

Every day a unique event?

Sabbath was the seventh day Sabbsth...set aside sanctified and made holy...

Yours is another gospel

clefty said:

No need to be sorry...resting in His shade is a nice break from the routine...

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You rest in shadows and deny the light has come.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

John 9:5
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in Me should remain in darkness.

clefty said:

No need to be sorry...resting in His shade is a nice break from the routine...

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Those saved are children of the light. Are you a child of shadows or light?

1 Thessalonians 5:5 You are all children of the light and children of the day.

1 John 2:8
Then again, I am also writing you a new commandment, which is true in Him and also in you. For the darkness is fading and the true light is already shining.

clefty said:

No need to be sorry...resting in His shade is a nice break from the routine...

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John 8:12
[ Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony ] When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Matthew 4:16 the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.”

Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.

Matthew 5:15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.

Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light.