ECT According to Paul he was not the only one that preached the MYSTERY.

dodge

New member
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Notice Paul did not reveal the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT.

How did those who follow and believe MAD miss this ?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Notice Paul did not reveal the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT.

How did those who follow and believe MAD miss this ?

I don't think they missed it, it's just not on their to do list.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Notice Paul did not reveal the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT.

How did those who follow and believe MAD miss this ?

The information concerning the Mystery was given to Paul by the Lord Jesus from heaven directly by revelation. Others understood what he taught by the illumination of the Spirit.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Notice Paul did not reveal the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT.


How did those who follow and believe MAD miss this ?



Their list is 2P2P and making sure it "sticks." It wouldn't matter to them how many others preached it, as long as there were 2 programs, which it is not validating anyway.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Notice Paul did not reveal the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT.

How did those who follow and believe MAD miss this ?
Ephesians 3 is "but now" mystery truth:

"mystery"

"Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men"

"as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit"

"unsearchable"

"hid in God"

It is the mystery pertaining to Gentiles (Ephesians 3:6 KJV)/the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19 KJV) who earlier (in time past) were without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) who Paul was made a prisoner of Jesus Christ for and to whom Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God to (directional "to you-ward" Ephesians 3:1-2 KJV). That it is "now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" is set in contrast to the earlier mystery (the mystery of Christ) which was a mystery hidden in the scriptures "according to the scriptures" of Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, but thanks for your concern.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Ephesians 3 KJV 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

____________________________________

"the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT."-Dodge

The "them" here assumption/argument="The twelve" apostles, and the "Old Testsment" prophets



Point 1:
The Ephesians 3:5 KJV passage referencing "apostles and the prophets," is not referencing the prophets and the 12 apostles, OT through "pre-Paul"-your "argument." It is referencing the apostles and prophets, "Paul, and going forward. And not "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" of Revelation 21:14 KJV.


The details of the book matter.

Note, the chronological order, "pre Paul"=OT up until Paul:



Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:


2 Peter 3:2 KJV

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Prophets first, then the 12 apostles.

Vs.

From Paul, on...

1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV


And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


Chronological order-book of details....

"first apostles"

"secondarily prophets"

Memorize it. Details. Survey Acts...Paul, first, apostle...Barnabus, an apostle.....then prophets....


Confirmed-order-apostles, then prophets:

Ephesians 2:20 KJV

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Ephesians 3:5 KJV

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
 

dodge

New member
The information concerning the Mystery was given to Paul by the Lord Jesus from heaven directly by revelation. Others understood what he taught by the illumination of the Spirit.

That is NOT what Paul said:

Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men
, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Paul taught that ALL the Apostles and some prophets were given the mystery by the SPIRIT.
 

I.S.I.T.

New member
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Notice Paul did not reveal the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT.

How did those who follow and believe MAD miss this ?
Yep, the OT prophets knew of it before Paul....

Ephesians 3 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Isaiah 42:6
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 60:3
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Luke 2:32
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
 

dodge

New member
Ephesians 3 KJV 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

____________________________________

"the mystery to the Apostles and Prophets the mystery was revealed to them by the SPIRIT."-Dodge

The "them" here assumption/argument="The twelve" apostles, and the "Old Testsment" prophets



Point 1:
The Ephesians 3:5 KJV passage referencing "apostles and the prophets," is not referencing the prophets and the 12 apostles, OT through "pre-Paul"-your "argument." It is referencing the apostles and prophets, "Paul, and going forward. And not "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" of Revelation 21:14 KJV.


The details of the book matter.

Note, the chronological order, "pre Paul"=OT up until Paul:



Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:


2 Peter 3:2 KJV

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Prophets first, then the 12 apostles.

Vs.

From Paul, on...

1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV


And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


Chronological order-book of details....

"first apostles"

"secondarily prophets"

Memorize it. Details. Survey Acts...Paul, first, apostle...Barnabus, an apostle.....then prophets....


Confirmed-order-apostles, then prophets:

Ephesians 2:20 KJV

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Ephesians 3:5 KJV

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


You sure added a lot of words PAUL did NOT say ! Paul taught that the mystery was revealed to the Apostles and the Prophets by the SPIRIT.
 

Danoh

New member
Ephesians 3 is "but now" mystery truth:

"mystery"

"Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men"

"as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit"

"unsearchable"

"hid in God"

It is the mystery pertaining to Gentiles (Ephesians 3:6 KJV)/the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19 KJV) who earlier (in time past) were without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) who Paul was made a prisoner of Jesus Christ for and to whom Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God to (directional "to you-ward" Ephesians 3:1-2 KJV). That it is "now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" is set in contrast to the earlier mystery (the mystery of Christ) which was a mystery hidden in the scriptures "according to the scriptures" of Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, but thanks for your concern.

Nope; Paul's point is that in time past the Gentiles had had no direct hope of access to Christ other than through Israel, because in time past, the Gentiles had been concluded without God in the world, and thus, without hope in the world.

But now, in Christ, this side of unbelieving Israel's fall and setting aside, the Gentiles had been made nigh directly.

That God...having concluded both unbelieving Israel and the Gentiles on the same level of enmity, both now under sin, He was now offering both - as individuals - direct access to Christ, and this...outside of Israel's Covenants of Promise.

Ephesians is Romans 102.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Danoh The Menace :chuckle:
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Yep, the OT prophets knew of it before Paul....

Ephesians 3 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Isaiah 42:6
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 60:3
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Luke 2:32
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
The problem with that is that Paul tells us the gospel he is preaching is that the BOC (body of Christ) is created through Israel's fall, not Israel's rise to glory.

Romans 11:11 KJV
(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​



Things that differ are not the same.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
You sure added a lot of words PAUL did NOT say ! Paul taught that the mystery was revealed to the Apostles and the Prophets by the SPIRIT.

"revealed to the Apostles and the Prophets by the SPIRIT"

You sure are condescending, and now admit you do not pay attention to the details of the book. The apostles and prophets referenced in Ephesians 3:5 KJV, are not the "OT prophets," and are not the 12 apostles. Paul taught that after the mystery was revealed to him, first, then, it was revealed to the apostles, "post Paul," i.e., not the 12, by the Spirit, and revealed to the prophets, that followed the post Paul apostles, i.e., not the OT prophets, by the Spirit.

You talk/debate like a Catholic. They talk/debate like you. Are you a closet Roman?


Take your seat.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
The problem with that is that Paul tells us the gospel he is preaching is that the BOC (body of Christ) is created through Israel's fall, not Israel's rise to glory.

Romans 11:11 KJV
(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​



Things that differ are not the same.

The word "created" is not used. The fall of Israel "created" nothing, but was merely the instrument used by God to call Gentiles into Covenant with Himself.

Spiritual principle: Romans 8:28
 

DAN P

Well-known member
That is NOT what Paul said:

Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men
, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Paul taught that ALL the Apostles and some prophets were given the mystery by the SPIRIT.


Hi , and here is what Eph 3:5 really means !!

The verb MADE KNOWN /GNORIZO is in the AORIST TENSE and in the PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative Mood !!

This Greek means it is speaking to Paul in The Dispensation of Grace and is NOT Acts or PENTECOST !!

The PASSIVE VOICE means it is God that is performing the action to Paul in Eph 3:5 !!

And it does not say revealed to the 12 apostles as APOSTLES ALSO means to His MESSINGERS , which is what APOSTLES are called today and PROPHETS means One who speaks a divine message !!

It is OBVIOUS that you will not believe Col 1:25 !!

Show a verse where Peter preached the Gospel of the Grace of God , LOL

dan p
 

I.S.I.T.

New member
The problem with that is that Paul tells us the gospel he is preaching is that the BOC (body of Christ) is created through Israel's fall, not Israel's rise to glory.

Clearly you guys are preaching division and not unity in Christ, and clearly you are even ignoring Paul's doctrine, pay attention to the parts in red below...

Ephesians 3 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Confirmed here also that the Gentiles are grafted into the same body of Christ that already existed...


Romans 11:17-24

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
 

Danoh

New member
You sure added a lot of words PAUL did NOT say ! Paul taught that the mystery was revealed to the Apostles and the Prophets by the SPIRIT.

JohnW rightly noted some passages that bring out one intended sense of two, that apply. Steko touched on the other one...

Case in JohnW's point....

Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Barnabas was considered an Apostle.

And there were other BODY Apostles one can find being mentioned in other passages...

But the other equally valid sense of Ephesians 3:5's "as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;" is in described the following...

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James, Cephas and John had been led to perceive or understand some things, through Paul's words to them.

And it did not end there, for copies of Paul's writings were somewhat distributed to the various groups and assemblies...

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Note: Peter is NOT saying that HE does not understand those things the Spirit had confirmed to him as to the validity of those things Paul wrote of.

Rather; that those who are unlearned in those things, and as a result are not established in an understanding of them (are unstable), twist them into some other intended meaning; just as some were then doing with the Law and the Prophets (the topic Peter began the chapter with).

Note: Paul had written of the Lord's delay once more - in His longsuffering - which is part of what Peter is talking about to his direct readers (see, for example, Romans 9-11, in light of Romans 1:18-3:30).

How were Paul's words confirmed unto them by the Spirit?

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

That had been the Spirit's recurrent pattern throughout the earlier part of Paul's ministry...

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

The signs of an Apostle were how Paul's words and ministry were confirmed as being from God.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Note: Romans 15:21 is Paul's application of the OT in a manner unique to him (and two other individuals in Scripture).

He will quote an OT passage, not as an assertion that it is being fulfilled in his day, but in his application of an operating principle within such passages, that is "the same" in operating principle in said OT passage "but different" in his unique application of it in his day.

That alone throws many off as to where Paul is often actually coming from.

Only three people in Scripture are able to do that - Moses; Paul; and the Lord - Who ALONE IS the foundation upon which both men had each been given their unique, distinct - foundational - calling.

Moses the LORD's Great Law Dispenser, and Paul; the Lord's Great Mystery Grace Dispenser.
 
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