Guns and terror watchlists

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/08/u...y-list-puts-republicans-on-the-spot.html?_r=0

Push for Gun Curbs Tied to No-Fly List Puts Republicans on the Spot

WASHINGTON — The bloody attack in San Bernardino, Calif., last week revived fears about threats from groups such as the Islamic State in America and also fused two fraught policy debates central to the presidential contest: gun control and how far to go in the fight against terrorism.

With domestic gun violence becoming increasingly common, Democrats have used the latest attack, apparently by supporters of the Islamic State, to frame the issue as a matter of national security. The tactic has put Republican presidential candidates on the spot and created some fissures within the field as those seeking the nomination try to balance defending Second Amendment rights and protecting the public.

On Sunday night, President Obama called for new restrictions that would prevent suspects who are on no-fly lists from getting access to guns, forcing Republicans to explain why potential terrorists should be able to buy weapons of war.

“What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to buy a semiautomatic weapon?” Mr. Obama asked in a prime-time address to the nation. “This is a matter of national security.”

The proposal, which has divided lawmakers along party lines, failed in the Senate last week, with just one Democrat and one Republican persuaded to switch sides on the issue. The four senators who are running for president — Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz — all voted against the measure.

Mr. Rubio, of Florida, cast the idea as another example of Democrats’ having too much faith in government, posing a threat to due process and potentially violating the rights of law-abiding citizens.

“The majority of people on the no-fly list are oftentimes people that basically just have the same name as somebody else, who don’t belong on the no-fly list,” Mr. Rubio said on CNN on Sunday, estimating that the majority of the more than 700,000 people on the list did not belong on it. “These are everyday Americans that have nothing to do with terrorism.”

Jeb Bush, the former governor of Florida, agreed with Mr. Rubio. He noted that Senator Ted Kennedy had been stopped from flying on multiple occasions because of problems with such lists and suggested that relying on a no-fly list would do more to slow innocent passengers than it would to stop would-be terrorists.

“This is not a list that you can be certain of,” Mr. Bush told ABC. “The first impulse of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama is to have gun control.”

Proposals to impose any restrictions on guns have been a nonstarter in Congress in recent years, despite the increasing prevalence of mass shootings. Opponents of gun control argue that gun laws will not deter people intent on committing murder, and they assert that it is safer to be armed in a dangerous world.

But not all of the Republicans seeking the White House were so certain that gun rights should apply to people who the government thinks could be plotting terrorist attacks. For candidates who have claimed that they would be the toughest against terrorists, the idea of letting homegrown radicals easily buy guns was a concern.

Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who called Mr. Obama’s proposal “cynical,” allowed on Monday in an interview with The Weekly Standard that “in theory, I don’t have a huge problem” with stopping people on the no-fly list from purchasing guns.

Taking it a step further, Gov. John R. Kasich of Ohio characterized imposing gun restrictions on people on the no-fly list as an obvious measure. “Of course, it makes common sense to say that, if you’re on a terrorist watch list, you shouldn’t be able to go out and get a gun,” Mr. Kasich said over the weekend.

And Donald J. Trump, who has been leading the field in most national and state polls for months, said that he also would be open to preventing terrorism suspects from buying firearms.
.....


There seem to be two main issues with this.
1) Some people on the list shouldn't be there.
2) Can you restrict a constitutional right when the people on this list haven't actually done anything.

The first concern seems manageable. Steps could be taken to improve the accuracy of the list and expedite the process for correcting errors. The second concern seems tougher though. If these people had actually done something, broken any laws, then presumably the authorities would do more than simply put their name on a list. Can we really restrict someone's rights based on potential? Based on what the government thinks the people might do?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Obama didn't put Christians and other right wing people on the list because he thinks they are terrorists.
 

rexlunae

New member
I'm quite anti-gun. But I don't favor expanding the use of the no-fly list. The government shouldn't be allowed to punish citizens without due process. We don't allow felons to possess firearms, but they've at least been convicted of some crime. I think that we should be very skeptical. I just don't see where there's room for making lists to punish people for predicted crimes.
 

musterion

Well-known member
analysis.jpg
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
“What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to buy a semiautomatic weapon?” Mr. Obama asked in a prime-time address to the nation. “This is a matter of national security.”

Because once you give the government such options, what counts as being suspect will broaden. You'll be a terror suspect if you ridicule government.

And that is something crazily against the spirit of the Second Amendment.
 

bybee

New member
I'm quite anti-gun. But I don't favor expanding the use of the no-fly list. The government shouldn't be allowed to punish citizens without due process. We don't allow felons to possess firearms, but they've at least been convicted of some crime. I think that we should be very skeptical. I just don't see where there's room for making lists to punish people for predicted crimes.

Agreed, but, perhaps psych evals could be employed, judiciously of course, but when there are signs of mental instability?
 

rexlunae

New member
Agreed, but, perhaps psych evals could be employed, judiciously of course, but when there are signs of mental instability?

Sure. But most people who become terrorists or mass shooters don't actually have a diagnosable mental illness, and that isn't what the no-fly list is about. So I think it's a bit of a distraction.
 

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
I'm kinda happy that we are talking stats rather than opinions for a change.

A few questions;

What is the difference in gang culture between the cities?
what is the difference in illicit drug use between the cities?
what the mean wealth as opposed to the median wealth?
did you know that the unemployment rate in chicago is 13% compared to 9% in houston?

Also what is the evidence of causation to correlation, did guns laws happen because of high homicide rate, was it the other way round or is it freak data?

I have never been an advocate of stats/citywide gun control so i'm not digging in on this juts interested in the wider data.

 

musterion

Well-known member
Agreed, but, perhaps psych evals could be employed, judiciously of course, but when there are signs of mental instability?

Bad, bad idea. Leftists have always wanted to see conservatives, Bible believers and basically anyone else who disagrees with them classified as dangerous on the sole basis that disagreeing with them is de facto evidence of mental instability.

You think they wouldn't try it, if we get another president like Obama and another brokeback Congress? If you don't, you're mistaken. All bets are off. It's Winner Takes All now and they know it.
 

bybee

New member
Bad, bad idea. Leftists have always wanted to see conservatives, Bible believers and basically anyone else who disagrees with them classified as dangerous on the sole basis that disagreeing with them is de facto evidence of mental instability.

You think they wouldn't try it, if we get another president like Obama and another brokeback Congress? If you don't, you're mistaken. All bets are off. It's Winner Takes All now and they know it.

I suppose it boils down to definitions and who has the authority to proclaim definitions?
 

JosephR

New member
if you read timothey mcveys autobiography you can see he is very intelligent..

but paranoid as I myself am..

do I condone His Cowardly attacks on innocents?? absolutely not... but alot of his points are spot on...

we are in a surveillance state... freedom is an illusion.. and I am not mentally ill or on drugs..
 

musterion

Well-known member
if you read timothey mcveys autobiography you can see he is very intelligent..

but paranoid as I myself am..

do I condone His Cowardly attacks on innocents?? absolutely not... but alot of his points are spot on...

we are in a surveillance state... freedom is an illusion.. and I am not mentally ill or on drugs..

Been reading lately that McVeigh was not even remotely the Christian he was trumped up to be; more of an atheist with a lot of affinity with Islam. True or not, I don't know, but it would explain the unpursued links to the M.E. men seen in the area before the explosion.
 

JosephR

New member
Been reading lately that McVeigh was not even remotely the Christian he was trumped up to be; more of an atheist with a lot of affinity with Islam. True or not, I don't know, but it would explain the unpursued links to the M.E. men seen in the area before the explosion.

that would explain a few things, in the logic of an enemy of my enemy is a friend, but then he failed to understand the ancient teachings of Sun Tzu..and see the flaw in this if he was aided by muslims...

He thought aliens had a tracking device in him....

we willingly carry GPS /audio/ video tracking devices daily, cell phones.. thinking we have rights to privacy... those are done away with in law by homeland security laws implemented after 9/11.

none of this makes sense and truth is as a serpent...cunning,agile and subtle. but not hidden.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
I'm quite anti-gun.
Briefly, what gun control measures do you support? I was thinking of creating a thread with a multiple-choice poll to see where TOLers stand on various measures.

But I don't favor expanding the use of the no-fly list. The government shouldn't be allowed to punish citizens without due process. We don't allow felons to possess firearms, but they've at least been convicted of some crime. I think that we should be very skeptical. I just don't see where there's room for making lists to punish people for predicted crimes.
Do you think the no-fly list is already punishing citizens without due process and should be removed?
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Also what is the evidence of causation to correlation, did guns laws happen because of high homicide rate, was it the other way round or is it freak data?
Does it really matter?

If the laws came first, are they working?
If the laws came second, are they working?

:idunno:
 

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
It colours your understanding of the issue.

If the gun laws pre-date the issue it would suggest there casual.

If they are a response as iIwould imagine (but haven't checked) it means at a city/state level they are proving of limited effect.

Even as a major proponent of Gun Control i'm very cynical about the effects of city or state level gun control.

If 1 hour drive across the border into Wisconsin you can by guns at walmart all of the gun control legislation in the world will have limited effect.

I.m of the opinion effective gun control in the US needs to be federal

Does it really matter?

If the laws came first, are they working?
If the laws came second, are they working?

:idunno:
 
Top