ECT Conditionalism

Is this a fair picture of conditional security (as it works itself out)?

Picture a man walking down a long, dark, rocky road beset with thieves, murderers and wild beasts. He has a weight on his back that he has to carry around with him everywhere he goes. He has to keep moving. To settle down or wander off the path is to invite total destruction. Along the way there are many fellow travellers who warn of the dangers all over the place. But they can't alleviate the burden any - only offer advice that comes from the pain of experience. There are even those who are dying on the side of the road - those who tried to make it but just couldn't do it. They kept returning to the path after straying, but that last time, they just didn't have the strength to do it. Will this man make it to the end of the journey without ending up like so much debris along the way?

For contrast, the one who has unconditional security :

Picture the same man walking down the same road with the same dangers all over. There are even the same people who couldn't quite make it because they failed to stay away from things that destroyed them and couldn't get back on the path. But this time, the man is not walking alone - he is being led by a guide who far exceeds him in strength and ability and knows the path intimately. Not only that, but in this picture the burden is not being carried by the aforementioned man, but by the guide. And this being the case, all those who spend their time warning the traveller about all the pitfalls to watch out for and avoid may be well meaning and accurately assessing the dangers, but when this traveller spends more time listening to these warnings than keeping his eye on the guide, it actually ends up instilling fear since the traveller knows he can't stay on the path. He starts listening more to the voices of warning than to the guide. Those warnings can be (not that they always are), in fact, more of a snare than a help. But whenever this traveller does go off the path, get sidetracked by voices of fear etc... the guide brings him back in line.

Please note that this is only meant to illustrate conditionalism vs. security and the contrasts they present. It doesn't imply anything of how a man comes to the Savior initially or the differences in individual experiences etc...

The only thing that is not conditional nor by anyone's faith, irrespective of who the person is is, "Redemption".

Been reading Pilgrim's Progress?

Truster said:

Been reading Pilgrim's Progress?

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While I admit there are similarities, I haven't read the book since I was in grade school so any similarity to analogies living or dead is purely coincidental.

The thought that germinated the OP was that conditionalism's bent towards moralism makes its proponents candidates for being those that whisper doubt into the ears of the "traveller" on the narrow way. And that doubt takes the form of commandments of the Law. There is, I believe, a time and a place to use the Law but it has to be used rightly - to humble. But when it is done to bring doubt, it isn't being used properly but is rather turning one into an emissary for the Galatians 1:8 "angel from heaven". Those whispers of doubt are only heeded because of man's innate trust of himself. So the one who uses the Law to threaten another's standing in Christ is likely repeating what the enemy of our souls himself would say.

And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
I John 3:19-21

nikolai_42 said:

Is this a fair picture of conditional security (as it works itself out)?

Picture a man walking down a long, dark, rocky road beset with thieves, murderers and wild beasts. He has a weight on his back that he has to carry around with him everywhere he goes. He has to keep moving. To settle down or wander off the path is to invite total destruction. Along the way there are many fellow travellers who warn of the dangers all over the place. But they can't alleviate the burden any - only offer advice that comes from the pain of experience. There are even those who are dying on the side of the road - those who tried to make it but just couldn't do it. They kept returning to the path after straying, but that last time, they just didn't have the strength to do it. Will this man make it to the end of the journey without ending up like so much debris along the way?

For contrast, the one who has unconditional security :

Picture the same man walking down the same road with the same dangers all over. There are even the same people who couldn't quite make it because they failed to stay away from things that destroyed them and couldn't get back on the path. But this time, the man is not walking alone - he is being led by a guide who far exceeds him in strength and ability and knows the path intimately. Not only that, but in this picture the burden is not being carried by the aforementioned man, but by the guide. And this being the case, all those who spend their time warning the traveller about all the pitfalls to watch out for and avoid may be well meaning and accurately assessing the dangers, but when this traveller spends more time listening to these warnings than keeping his eye on the guide, it actually ends up instilling fear since the traveller knows he can't stay on the path. He starts listening more to the voices of warning than to the guide. Those warnings can be (not that they always are), in fact, more of a snare than a help. But whenever this traveller does go off the path, get sidetracked by voices of fear etc... the guide brings him back in line.

Please note that this is only meant to illustrate conditionalism vs. security and the contrasts they present. It doesn't imply anything of how a man comes to the Savior initially or the differences in individual experiences etc...

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No, this is not a fair picture.

A fair picture is found in The Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan.

In that story, the burden Christian bears is dropped at the cross and he is given a certificate of entry.

You can read the Spark Notes on The Pilgrim’s Progress to see what happened to the certificate and all the pitfalls that Christian had to avoid after getting it.

Redemption is reality. Everything else is by faith.

nikolai_42 said:

Is this a fair picture of conditional security (as it works itself out)?

Picture a man walking down a long, dark, rocky road beset with thieves, murderers and wild beasts. He has a weight on his back that he has to carry around with him everywhere he goes. He has to keep moving. To settle down or wander off the path is to invite total destruction. Along the way there are many fellow travellers who warn of the dangers all over the place. But they can't alleviate the burden any - only offer advice that comes from the pain of experience. There are even those who are dying on the side of the road - those who tried to make it but just couldn't do it. They kept returning to the path after straying, but that last time, they just didn't have the strength to do it. Will this man make it to the end of the journey without ending up like so much debris along the way?

For contrast, the one who has unconditional security :

Picture the same man walking down the same road with the same dangers all over. There are even the same people who couldn't quite make it because they failed to stay away from things that destroyed them and couldn't get back on the path. But this time, the man is not walking alone - he is being led by a guide who far exceeds him in strength and ability and knows the path intimately. Not only that, but in this picture the burden is not being carried by the aforementioned man, but by the guide. And this being the case, all those who spend their time warning the traveller about all the pitfalls to watch out for and avoid may be well meaning and accurately assessing the dangers, but when this traveller spends more time listening to these warnings than keeping his eye on the guide, it actually ends up instilling fear since the traveller knows he can't stay on the path. He starts listening more to the voices of warning than to the guide. Those warnings can be (not that they always are), in fact, more of a snare than a help. But whenever this traveller does go off the path, get sidetracked by voices of fear etc... the guide brings him back in line.

Please note that this is only meant to illustrate conditionalism vs. security and the contrasts they present. It doesn't imply anything of how a man comes to the Savior initially or the differences in individual experiences etc...

Click to expand...

Picture men clamoring for security, as we all are, buying security that doesn't warn against the destructive forces of sin, with consequences that can be overbearing and overcoming.

Now picture men sold out for Christ, surrendered to Him, and filled with the security He provides, even in a torturous Phiilipian jail, men singing praises to the king.

You sell whatever your conscience permits, I'm arguing for the latter, with God's help until the day I die...

BTW I bought the first scenario to much pain and misery... Its a thoroughly losing proposistion that offers nothing but Hell, here and now.

Jamie Gigliotti said:

Picture men clamoring for security, as we all are, buying security that doesn't warn against the destructive forces of sin, with consequences that can be overbearing and overcoming.

Now picture men sold out for Christ, surrendered to Him, and filled with the security He provides, even in a torturous Phiilipian jail, men singing praises to the king.

You sell whatever your conscience permits, I'm arguing for the latter, with God's help until the day I die...

BTW I bought the first scenario to much pain and misery... Its a thoroughly losing proposistion that offers nothing but Hell, here and now.

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When a man is converted in regeneration from above that man is supplied with the knowledge of being secure. The very fact that he is taken out of darkness into light, from death unto life. That the burden of the guilt of sin is removed. That he now hates what he once loved and now loves what he once hated.
The fact that he is having a conversation with the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise Elohim. This is security that the unregenerate does not know and runs around trying to find in having a form of religion, but denying the power, because they have no experience of that power.

Truster said:

When a man is converted in regeneration from above that man is supplied with the knowledge of being secure. The very fact that he is taken out of darkness into light, from death unto life. That the burden of the guilt of sin is removed. That he now hates what he once loved and now loves what he once hated.
The fact that he is having a conversation with the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise Elohim. This is security that the unregenerate does not know and runs around trying to find in having a form of religion, but denying the power, because they have no experience of that power.

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Man is converted to regeneration if indeed his conversion was sincere, sufficient to ask for the Holy Spirit.

Cross Reference said:

Man is converted to regeneration if indeed his conversion was sincere, sufficient to ask for the Holy Spirit.

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You have no understanding of what conversion means. There is no sincerity required from the person being converted or in regeneration.

Truster said:

You have no understanding of what conversion means. There is no sincerity required from the person being converted or in regeneration.

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Did Christ convert you or did you convert to Christ? Were you saved before your mind was converted to Christ?

Cross Reference said:

Did Christ convert you or did you convert to Christ? Were you saved before your mind was converted to Christ?

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In conversion the sinner is passive. The work of conversion is all of Elohim. So unto Him be the honour and the power and the glory. If you had been converted you would know and recognise this.
The fact you don't recognise this act of conversion through experience means I would never, ever call you or suggest that you are my brother in Messiah.

Truster said:

In conversion the sinner is passive. The work of conversion is all of Elohim. So unto Him be the honour and the power and the glory. If you had been converted you would know and recognise this.
The fact you don't recognise this act of conversion through experience means I would never, ever call you or suggest that you are my brother in Messiah.

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Passive and yet he can't turn to God. You don't make sense.

Cross Reference said:

Passive and yet he can't turn to God. You don't make sense.

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Passive; inactive, dormant, inert.

The work of turning is done by Almighty power.

Truster said:

When a man is converted in regeneration from above that man is supplied with the knowledge of being secure. The very fact that he is taken out of darkness into light, from death unto life. That the burden of the guilt of sin is removed. That he now hates what he once loved and now loves what he once hated.
The fact that he is having a conversation with the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise Elohim. This is security that the unregenerate does not know and runs around trying to find in having a form of religion, but denying the power, because they have no experience of that power.

Click to expand...

I don't buy the forced bit, it's contrary to love. God could force anything He wants, and wouldn't have had to pay the price at calvary, which was meant to woo the hearts of men, to prove His love.

Jamie Gigliotti said:

I don't buy the forced bit, it's contrary to love. God could force anything He wants, and wouldn't have had to pay the price at calvary, which was meant to woo the hearts of men, to prove His love.

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Unilateral need not mean forced...

There are some spiritual "slopes" we slide down whether we like it or not. Once begun, we can't claw our way back to the plateau no matter how much we want to.

nikolai_42 said:

Unilateral need not mean forced...

There are some spiritual "slopes" we slide down whether we like it or not. Once begun, we can't claw our way back to the plateau no matter how much we want to.

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That has not been my experience with Christ, not what I've seen in scrioture, nor what His Spirit has convinced me of.

Jamie Gigliotti said:

I don't buy the forced bit, it's contrary to love. God could force anything He wants, and wouldn't have had to pay the price at calvary, which was meant to woo the hearts of men, to prove His love.

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You don't buy the forced bit....care to explain what happened to Saul on the road to Damascus? Because I can relate to that experience.

''A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.''

will I, will I, I will, I will, I will, and cause, and ye shall keep, and do them....

The picture is when the Jews left Egypt, before they reached the Red sea there was a pillar of cloud by day and by night a pillar of fire separating them from their enemy, after they passed miraculously through the sea [a picture of water baptism incidentally] they saw the Egyptians no more, neither could they turn back [except in their minds which incurred God's anger] they were forever FREE, but they could not enter the land of promise until they got their minds right, they could not enter into the full enjoyment of God and His great salvation.

They could die in the wilderness but they could not return to Egypt.

People assume that to die in the wilderness equates to damnation...it does no such thing.

Truster said:

You don't buy the forced bit....care to explain what happened to Saul on the road to Damascus? Because I can relate to that experience.

''A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.''

will I, will I, I will, I will, I will, and cause, and ye shall keep, and do them....

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Agreed the only thing good in anyone is God Himself, and yes He gets all the credit, it is only by His grace.

But He also says He died for the world not just a select few that are either lucky enough or somehow more loved than the others. Along those same lines He says He wants all men to be saved. Why? Because He loves them all.

The only logical conclusion is that our will comes into play, not will to choose right or wrong, but the choice to submit to Him.

This theology is also in line with the rationality of love and worship, which wouldn't even be love and worship if it was some kind of robotic endeavor.

Your theology makes no sense, it has no answer for evil, and it diminishes love and the love God has.

Further telling the lambs it's safe to play with the roaring lion that is looking to devour, is lunacy.

Paul was taught to fear God in a special way, but that experience does not happen to us all. Why would we even be taught to fear God if it wasn't possible for us to refuse him?

Finally I did refuse Him, after experiencing His love, much to my demise, taken no doubt to the brink of life and death, before I said yes LORD I need you again. You will say that was because of His grace, which yes it was, but that doesn't mean I am loved more or any more special than anyone else God loves and yet falls to destroying lies of the Devil. But it has confirmed the truth of what His word says our choices matter. We reap what we sow, either to Him, or the self/flesh, we have choices to make (Galatians 6:8). Are we going to submit to Him or not?