Originally posted by BChristianK
BChristianK,
Thank you for your consideration of my answer.
How refreshing to find someone who is indeed interested in a study of the Bible. I hope this progresses between us. I will try hard not to make you mad, but you probably will get mad from time to time. I hope it want interfere with a positive approach to the study and a deep consideration to what I have to say.
Some of my answers may be long. I do a lot of articles. I use to do a 5 minute radio program and my script was a page long. I could cut and paste a page or so on some of the answers but I will not try to overwhelm you. That is a promise.
You're right, this earthly judge has not the authority nor reason to act graciously to this young woman. But we must remember that we are not judged by earthly principles.
This is true. The judgement of God through Christ will not be subjective as so much of this earth’s judgement ride.
Not what would Jesus say to one like the thief on the cross (who was clearly not baptized according to your formula) and clearly died before he was able to do so.
Was this bride (the thief) married to the groom (Christ) through the ritual of baptism?
Clearly not. Would an earthly judge say, what you have said.?
Probably not.
Now you have said: God alone can judge people.
And God alone has judged the thief on the cross and it appears that His judgment runs contrary to your judgment on whether or not he would be condemned to hell.
How so? God’s judgment is always righteous. You say that it runs contrary to my judgment on whether or not he would be condemned to hell. You conclude this not based on “all the counsel of God.� You must understand what law is in affect while Jesus hangs alive on the cross. The thief, is he subject to the law of Christ while He yet lives. Is not a testament only good after the testator is dead? (Hebrews 9:16-17). So, it is my understanding, what is commissioned to the apostles at the ascension of Christ is not at the time of “the thief on the cross� yet in effect. Simply, Christ’s law (Gal. 6:2) was not in effect prior to His death on the cross. What Jesus did was a repeating of what He had done many times before His mock trial and death on the cross. He often forgave sins. He often blessed the penitent in His ministry. However, after His death on the cross the law that He commissioned became the means of administrating the forgiveness of sins. It is that law that requires faith in Christ as the Messiah (John 8:24), the necessity of repentance of sins (Luke 13:3,5), confession of Christ before man ( Matthew 10:32-33), and baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16). The thief was not baptized with the baptism of forgiveness of sins because he was not subject to that commandment at the time. I will welcome your comments on this understanding.
Noah was saved from the flood by building an ark and regularly offered animal sacrifice; Abraham used the family altar; Moses was atoned in the tabernacle and Solomon in the temple. We must enter Christ and the church for salvation. Baptism as we know it was not a factor with Noah, Abraham, Moses, or the thief on the cross. They all lived and died under previous laws, laws which are no longer in effect. We live today under a set law, one which was established for the duration of man's history. That law commands baptism, a burial in water for the remission of sins, preceded by faith, repentance, and confession.
If we neglect to be baptized for remission of sins we cannot claim God does not love us. If we are lost it is because we are the ones who have refused his directions for receiving forgiveness.
Here is where you and I may be closer in theology than you might think.
As Baptists, we have been a bit neglectful of what the bible says is the initiatory rite that represents the confession faith. In many Baptist and baptistic circles, baptism is really an afterthought, somethin' to do after you are for sure saved. I have heard it said in Baptist circles that this is "just," and they have used the word just, the first act of obedience after salvation.
Paul’s letter to the Colossians helps us to better understand authority. He taught, “ And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.� (Colossians 3:17 AV). This tells me that Christ has all authority and I have none. I have no right to do an “afterthought� but only that which is authorized. Baptism is authorized “for the remission of sins� (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47), and should not be considered a mere “second thought.�
Well, if a person isn't willing to undergo what the Baptists say is "just" the first act of obedience to Christ, and what the bible advocates is the way a person publicly professes their faith, then I would have to admit that there is something seriously wrong, either with their understanding of the role of baptism or the authenticity of their heart conversion (unless of course there is some medical reason they cannot participate in a water baptism).
We have yet to agree on “what the Baptists say is ‘just’ the first act of obedience to Christ, and what the bible advocates is the way a person publicly professes their faith� to be biblically sound. Basically, I do not accept the Baptist position at all to be sound. I believe we could find much discussion on Baptist doctrine, if that is what you would like to discuss. Give an example of “a medical reason that cannot participate in a water baptism.�
For those who have come to accept Christ's free offer of forgiveness, having repented of their sins and confessed Christ as Lord, believing in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, it is scripturally imperative that baptism follow as soon as possible!
And why so? Because it places one into Christ where all spiritual blessing, of which salvation and the forgiveness of sins, rest (Eph. 1:3). Is it so� scripturally imperative� in your mind that failure to institute it will cause one to be lost?
I long for the day when we are again willing to baptize the converted immediately. (though there is some question as to how soon constitutes immediately in the bible, I'm pretty sure the upper room didn't have a baptistery).
Peter told those on Pentecost to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins....then they that received the word were baptized and the same day they were added to them (the apostles JAC) about 3,000 souls (Acts 2:38, 41). From this we should conclude that one is not in harmony with the apostles which then constituted the church of Christ until they were immersed. The church is the bride of Christ and that which Christ saves. It is the family of God and the household of faith. I think we can agree that God has no children outside His family and household, can’t we? Without exception I believe we see every case where baptism was administered it was immediately at the time it was expedient to do so. I find no example of delay beyond the immediate circumstance. However, I will entertain your comment.
But for those who have been taught that it isn't really that important, or who have been misled by teaching that it shouldn't occur at all (like the Mid acts brethren who don't practice baptism at all), I have a hard time thinking that God will assign them to eternal punishment due to their ignorance.
Why are they ignorant? Doesn’t God give all creatures the same bible? Doesn’t it say the same to all when properly interpreted? Aren’t all required to “rightly divide� or interpret the scriptures? If all this is true then whose fault is it that we do not obey the doctrine of Christ? Failure comes from doing that which is wrong. Many false teachers infect Christendom. We see more than 1,500 denominational organizations world wide teaching different doctrines yet saying they are a faction of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Disciples of Jesus were told to do "Whatever He tells you to do" (John 2:5). Our blessed Savior asks a pertinent question in Luke 6:46. "Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" The terms of admission into the Savior's domain are simple and clear. Let us rejoice in the eloquent surroundings of God's love and hasten to be faithful members of that spiritual body, the church, made possible by the blood of the Lamb.
Jesus clearly taught Nicodemus that one must be born again of water and Spirit to enter the kingdom. Acts 8:12 and 8:26-39 demonstrate this arrangement in absolute fashion. The kingdom the prophets saw and these examples of conversion illustrate the divine pattern. Praise God for such simplicity and beauty.
If we make the waters of baptism magical, such that anyone who does it is saved and anyone who doesn't isn't, we have gone beyond what the word teaches us about baptism and we trampled sufficiency of faith for salvation which is clearly taught throughout the scriptures.
People are so quick to discount water baptism’s importance because they see only water. I gather from what you are saying that you see water baptism as people seeing something magical about it, right? There is nothing in the water that is magical. It is pure water. The only difference between tap water and water of baptism is the symbolics associated with it. Symbolically one is cleansed of sins (Acts 22:16) by the blood of Christ. Christ placed the parameters of baptism and without question one needs to “gladly receive the word “ and be immersed for the remission of sins. He said, “...he that believes and is baptized shall be saved� (Mark 16:16).
You see, we need to accept the whole of the word, not just the parts that ratify our theology, and that goes for all of us, the Baptists included. For the baptistic types, we have to come to terms with Acts 2:38
A refreshing statement on your part. Have you ever considered that disciples of Christ should only be called “Christians�? Luke writes for us, “...And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.� (Acts 11:26 AV)
For those in the Restoration traditions like the Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ, there is a need to come to terms with Acts 10.
How do you mean?
If we believe that Holy Spirit is the seal of our salvation (and we should)…Then it is hard to argue that those who received the spirit before they were baptized, were unsaved until they were dunked.
Can you find for me and those who may be following this post an example of anyone, after the commission of Christ, who received the spirit before they were baptized? By receive I mean as an “indwelling.�
If we believe Ephesians 1:13 without adding out own speculative footnotes then we must assume that it was true that they were marked in Him with Holy Spirit. Now we could, footnote the passage and say "having believed, oh yea, and baptized, Paul meant that, he just didn't say it, an oversight of the Holy Spirit maybe?"
Is it absolutely necessary in every case to have every word repeated over and over again in order to make it doctrinal? I don’t think so. When something is said or is shown to be the case, we should accept that it is the same in all cases. I would suppose that the whole Bible could not contain all the sayings otherwise. Once said or shown it should be doctrine when properly interpreted.
You would surely agree with me that such a practice would not be very consistent with the Restorationist's confession that the bible is the only creed, wouldn't it? Do we not construct our own creeds, whether they be written and published or not, if we consistently footnote the bible with our own theology instead of letting Ephesians 1:13 stand on its own?
I would agree that any “foot noting� that is not in harmony with the Word of God would be unscriptural. In commenting on Ephesians 1:13, I am confident that the term “believed� is all conclusive of faith, repentance, confession and baptism for the remission of sins, and not just faith alone as so many hold. After the disciple believes (hears the gospel, believe that Christ is the Messiah, repents of sins, confesses Christ publically, and is immersed into Christ) he is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
I look forward to your direct answers to my previous question…
I hope I have given you those answers but am open for improvement if needed.
Now, does your theology force you to conclude that he is now rotting in hell?
Unless you say otherwise, I will assume your answer is yes for the remainder of our dialog.
He would be within the Hadean realm awaiting the return of Christ who will judge the “quick and the dead� according to righteousness (2 Tim. 2:1; 1 Peter 4:5; Rev. 19:11). But, what we have to deal with is you. You have heard the gospel while alive and vibrant. Are you going to obey it or reject it?
In Christ,
JustAChristian
