can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by Aimiel There are no ahteists. There are those who deny that God exists, but to be an atheist, one would have to have proof that there is no God, and there isn't any....
Oh, c'mon! That's completely ridiculous. Look up the words "theist" or "atheist" in a dictionary and you will see that it says nothing about having proof of God's existence or non-existence. An atheist is simply someone who does not believe in the existence of a god. They're no different from a theist who does believe in the existence of a god. Neither of them have to have proof to believe as they believe, and to be what they are by definition.

Also, how can there even be proof that something doesn't exist? The only possible way of proving that something doesn't exist is to collect up all that does exist and see what's not there, and this is of course absurd and impossible. Yet does this mean that everything exists, by default, just because we can't prove that anything does not exist? Of course not.

Theists have no more proof that God does exist than atheists have proof that God does not exist. There is no possible way of proving the existence of God just as there is no possible way of disproving the existence of God. Theism and atheism are both beliefs based on subjective opinion, and not on objective proofs. And in fact there is no possible way of proving or disproving God's existence.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by Berean Todd Jesus was recorded by many non-Biblical sources.....
No, actually not. The actual life of Jesus is not documented anywhere, by anyone. Even the stories in the bible were not written by eye-witnesses as is so often believed, but have been written down by unknown authors many years later. People still argue about who wrote what, and who was copying what gospel document from whom, but most scholars agree that the documents that we actually have in our hands today were not written by anyone who actually knew Jesus. At best, they are copies of other documents that no longer exist, that might have been written by someone who actually did personally know Jesus.

And besides the bible, there are no corroberating records of Jesus' life at all. The references to Jesus that people often try to refer to as corroberating witnesses are not witnesses to anything but are only people who had heard about Jesus from others and then wrote about him as if he did exist. But they didn't actually know him or know that he existed as anything more than an idea in the minds of others. They aren't really witnesses to anything but other people's belief that Jesus existed.

There are millions of documents that attest to Jesus as an idea, and to the fact that many millions of people have presumed Jesus to have been an actual person. But when Jesus was an actual person, he was not even mentioned in any document or artifact that anyone has ever found.

This is not surprising, however, as billions of human beings have lived and died without ever having been recorded in any way, or if they were recorded, the document has been long since lost. The odds against any one person being documented by some ancient artifact two thousand years later would be astronomically high.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by BillyBob

Jesus was hardly mentioned anywhere besides the Bible, but he was mentioned.

http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm
Heresay is not a reliable witness. That's why we don't accept it in court when we're trying to find out the truth about something that happened.

There are lots of documents that speak of Jesus as if he existed, but that were written by people who only heard of this Jesus from other people years ater Jesus' death. But hearing about Jesus from "believers" does not support the existence of Jesus the man, it only supports that there were people who believed in the myth of Jesus. This is an obvious example of the latter.

Also, looking for archeological evidence on a web site dedicated to Christian apologetics does not lend much credibiity to your point. It's sort of like asking Bill O'Rielly for unbiased information about some gay Hollywood liberal actor. He'll be constitutionally incapable of complying with such a request. Now if we had a translation of this artifact from some actual archeologists, who aren't pretend archeologiests from the Jerry Falwell college of propaganda and pseudo-science, and their translation indicated that the author had first hand knowledge of the existence of Jesus, that might be considered some pretty good evidence.
 
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BillyBob

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Much of history is made up of heresay. Your point was that there is no extra-Biblical documentation of Jesus life, I have shown that you are wrong, which has become relatively frequent as of late.
 

firechyld

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I'm sorry, but I get really irritated when Christians try to use Josephus as extra-biblical "proof" of Jesus' life.

Have you actually READ Josephus? Yes, there are passages that could refer to Jesus... but if you're going to accept those passages as accurate you must accept the rest of Josephus' writings. Including the bits that clearly argue against the gospels as historically accurate.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by BillyBob Much of history is made up of heresay. Your point was that there is no extra-Biblical documentation of Jesus life, I have shown that you are wrong, which has become relatively frequent as of late.
No, you haven't. All you've shown is that there is documentation that people believed in the myth of Jesus, which does not say anything about the actual existence of Jesus. But aparently you're not able to understand or recognize the difference. So we may as well just drop it.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by jjjg

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

This might help you as a source.
Documents "referring to Christ's life" are by their own definition statements of faith, and not evidence of fact. There are documents all over TOL that "refer to Christ's life". But none of them prove that Jesus the man ever existed. All they prove is that people believe that Jesus existed, and that he was the Christ. But what people believe was never the question. The question was is there and evidence that Jesus the man ever existed outside of the bible. And the answer is no, there is not.
 

jjjg

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Obviously you didn't read the post.

They had Jewish and pagan sources speaking of Christ (even if it was from a negative point of view which makes it even more genuine).
 

Aimiel

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More Genuine, Indeed...

More Genuine, Indeed...

Just like the mere fact that Jesus was described to men, because He would be able to give them eternal life; not because those telling the story wanted anyone to think more highly of them. Had that been their goal, they'd have certainly left out the part where they denied Him or didn't understand what He was doing. They'd have painted themselves in a better light. They were writing truth, and that is what Christians do. We admit to our sin, which, in turn, helps others who are in a similar situation to what we encountered.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by PureX

Look up the words "theist" or "atheist" in a dictionary and you will see that it says nothing about having proof of God's existence or non-existence. An atheist is simply someone who does not believe in the existence of a god.
If I say there's no gold in China, would you believe me? If I tell you that I've searched under every rock and tree, lake and stream and found none; would you believe that I've done so? Not hardly. If I say there is no gold in China, during a televised interview, I would be willing to bet that several prospectors would find a way onto the next flight to Shang'hai. Saying one is atheist is foolish. The dictionary is not my God. God said that only a fool has said in his heart, "There is no God..." He is right. For one to believe that because they can't see or touch something proves that it doesn't exist is foolishness. Their heart beats, whether they believe it does or does not exist. Their brain tells them (at least) to bathe and dress, whether or not they believe in it. God is the same. He exists, whether or not agnostics ever make up their mind to accept the fact that He just might.
They're no different from a theist who does believe in the existence of a god.
Most believers aren't fools.
Neither of them have to have proof to believe as they believe, and to be what they are by definition.
I do, or I wouldn't believe. I have been in too many religious ceremonies where the zombies in, "The Night of the Living Dead," looked far more animated and alive than any of the participants. I have also been in too many religious circles where God isn't on the mind (much less heart) of anyone involved to want to ever take part in any dead religious practices. If God is not in it, it is a waste of time and stinks worse than anything.
Also, how can there even be proof that something doesn't exist?
That's my point. To believe that something doesn't exist, one has to have proof otherwise. That's why I am not sure about evolution, there is no proof, either way. I guess I'm agnostic. If I say that it doesn't exist, I'd better have my proof in my hand.
The only possible way of proving that something doesn't exist is to collect up all that does exist and see what's not there, and this is of course absurd and impossible.
Then why do scientists claim that the theory of evolution is right, without any proof?
Theists have no more proof that God does exist than atheists have proof that God does not exist.
You're right, so far; except for ourselves. God always confirms His Word, but not to un-believers. He hasn't chosen to open that door, yet.
There is no possible way of proving the existence of God just as there is no possible way of disproving the existence of God.
There is, you just might not be willing to subject yourself to any.
And in fact there is no possible way of proving or disproving God's existence.
You only say that because you haven't seen the light, yet.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by jjjg

Obviously you didn't read the post.

They had Jewish and pagan sources speaking of Christ (even if it was from a negative point of view which makes it even more genuine).
Anyone can "speak of Christ". That doesn't say anything about the existence of Jesus. All it says is that people believed he existed and that he was the Christ.

Speaking OF Jesus is not speaking TO Jesus, the physical man. We have no evidence of the physical existence of Jesus. We only have evidence of people believing in the physical existence of Jesus, but who had no direct experience of the physical Jesus to offer us as evidence.
 

jjjg

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They "speak of the existence of Christ" and they do not say he was the messiah but that he was some insurgent walking around sturring up trouble.

It is like anything else in history, you usually have to piece together the puzzle and look at all sources.

We know there was a Caiphas from the records and we know the was a Pilate. We know there was a John The Baptist and even his burial ground as well as the apostles.

The indirect evidence is overwhelming and is more important than people's personal testimony which can be exagerated.

There is more proof that Christ did exist than didn't as his influence on history shows.
 

firechyld

New member
Just like the mere fact that Jesus was described to men, because He would be able to give them eternal life; not because those telling the story wanted anyone to think more highly of them. Had that been their goal, they'd have certainly left out the part where they denied Him or didn't understand what He was doing. They'd have painted themselves in a better light. They were writing truth, and that is what Christians do. We admit to our sin, which, in turn, helps others who are in a similar situation to what we encountered.

Do a little research into the political climate surrounding the authorship of the gospels, and the goals of the groups responsible for them. All the "negative aspects" of the story have a purpose. They were written by a minority group, during war time, when the goal was to turn the "us/them" view of the Jews from macrocosmic to microcosmic.
 

c.moore

New member
Originally posted by PureX

Anyone can "speak of Christ". That doesn't say anything about the existence of Jesus. All it says is that people believed he existed and that he was the Christ.

Speaking OF Jesus is not speaking TO Jesus, the physical man. We have no evidence of the physical existence of Jesus. We only have evidence of people believing in the physical existence of Jesus, but who had no direct experience of the physical Jesus to offer us as evidence.

This is the million dollar question and theory my mythology teacher asked and waiting for the answers.
 

God_Is_Truth

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Originally posted by c.moore

This is the million dollar question and theory my mythology teacher asked and waiting for the answers.

ask him if Julias Ceasar was a real person and why believes the way he does.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by c.moore This is the million dollar question and theory my mythology teacher asked and waiting for the answers.
I expect that he'll be waiting a long time.

But remember that BILLIONS of human beings have lived and died on this Earth without leaving behind any objective evidence that they had ever been here, individually. And in fact even with the mountain of information that is being developed about us these days, it will be very unlikely that any of it will still be around in two thousand years to attest to our own existence. So I'm not sure that your teacher is being completely fair in using the lack of objective evidence for Jesus' life as a way of suggesting that Jesus did not physically exist. (I don't know if he is doing this, but if so, I'd say it's somewhat desengenuous of him.)

Perhaps your teacher only trying to stress the point, though, of how much Jesus' life has become a myth over the centuries and how little we actually know about the man that has inspired so much respect, worship, mythical revelation and even idolatry. If so, this certainly would be a fair point to stress.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Jesus is NO Myth

Jesus is NO Myth

There's far more evidence that Jesus is Who He and His followers said He is, than there is to the contrary. In point of fact, there is none that proves that He is not. The evidence of the four Gospels is far more proof than most people realize. The writings of Dr. Greenleaf, who was asked to weigh the evidence found in the four Gospels for himself, and prove or disprove Jesus' claims, are very interesting, at the very least. He did so, came to the conclusion that Jesus existed, was born of a virgin, taught in Israel, was crucified, buried and ressurrected, and then ascended. He promptly, upon discovering this evidence for himself, became Christian. :thumb:

-- Aimiel
_______________________________________________

He said: "Every document, apparently ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine, and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise.

"In matters of public and general interest, all persons must be presumed to be conversant, on the principle that individuals are presumed to be conversant with their own affairs.

"According to this rule, we must allow that in copying manuscripts, the Christians did not corrupt the text, since they must be presumed to be conversant with their own affairs. Now that we have fragments of manuscripts from as early as A.D. 130, we have excellent evidence that such a presumption is indeed justified.

"In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.7
A proposition of fact is proved, when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.8

"In the absence of circumstances which generate suspicion, every witness is to be presumed credible, until the contrary is shown; the burden of impeaching his credibility lying upon the objector.9

"The credit due to the testimony of witnesses depends upon, firstly, their honesty; secondly, their ability; thirdly, their number and the consistency of their testimony; fourthly, the conformity of their testimony with experience; and fifthly, the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances.10

"After a witness is dead, and his moral character is forgotten, we can ascertain it only by a close inspection of his narrative, comparing its details with each other, and with contemporary accounts and collateral facts. This test is much more accurate than may at first be supposed. Every event which actually transpires, has its appropriate relation and place in the vast complication of circumstances, of which the affairs of men consist; it owes its origin to the events which have preceded it, is intimately connected with all others which occur at the same time and place, and often with those of remote regions, and in its turn gives birth to numberless others which succeed. In all this almost inconceivable contexture, and seeming discord, there is perfect harmony; and while the fact, which really happened, tallies exactly with every other contemporaneous incident related to it in the remotest degree, it is not possible for the wit of man to invent a story, which, if closely compared with the actual occurrences of the same time and place, may not be shown to be false." *1

Dr Greenleafs concluding statement included the following quote:

"It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact." *2

*1 Excerpts from, "The Bible and the Rules of Legal Evidence, " an article by Richard Riss, quoting Dr. Simon Greenleaf, a 'Royal Professor,' of Harvard Law School, also know as the top authority on evidence; one of the greatest American attorneys. Article here.

*2 Quoted from, "Histoicity of Christ," article, on: THIS website.
 
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