The Trinity

keypurr said:

Are you finely seeing the light? Joking BR

Have you ever read the words Jesus is the son of God in scripture?

if so, why do you not believe it?

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What attributes does the Son of God have, as referenced by Paul in the book of Hebrews? Described like that, sounds like it means "God in the flesh." Without beginning or end of days?

Hebrews 7:1-3 KJV
(1) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
(2) To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
(3) Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I am using Hebrews to define what the Jews meant by "Son of God." That and the gospel account that they considered the claim to be the "Son of God" as blasphemy. What are you using for definition that would imply that it meant anything less than God?

Please do not protest that "God the Son" isn't in the bible. I've never used the phrase, and I haven't seen it here recently, so I am not sure what is being argued against here.

God's Truth said:

That sounds good. Now tell me, do you believe you have to obey to get saved, or do you believe you only have to have faith to get saved?

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I believe that we are saved of our past sins by the grace of God through faith. We are then to go sin no more. But if we have true faith then we will be obedient to God. If we're not obedient to God, then we're not truly faithful. If we don't obey God then we are workers of sin and God and sin don't mix. We should be turning from sin when we know the living God and obey him and the holy spirit will be guiding us in the truth, and should obey him.

TulipBee said:

When God say believe, you will believe. Its a command, not a request.

Grace enabled you to Obey

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Grace doesn't enable us to obey, we have freewill and a choice to make always. If grace enabled us to obey, none of us would ever sin.

God doesn't want robots, he wants us to be a willing sacrifice and to give our lives freely, and wants us to deny our fleshly lusts and obey him. We have a fight on our hands. And it starts within our own hearts. If we're not turning from sinning, then we're not obeying God.

TulipBee said:

God gets what he wants but you dont want him to have that much power

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God does NOT always get what he wants. This is a pretty simple proof.

Matthew 23:37 KJV
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mark 10:21-22 KJV
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(22) And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


2 Peter 3:9 KJV(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If we grant that Jesus was God for the first two examples,

1. Jesus many times would have gathered Jerusalem under his wings, but they would not.
2. Jesus wanted the man to follow him, but the man would not.
3. The Lord is willing that all men should come to repentance, but it seems that some will not.

So there are some examples where he doesn't get what he wants.

TulipBee said:

When God say believe, you will believe. Its a command, not a request.

Grace enabled you to Obey

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If that were so, then how do you explain this?

Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Timothy 2:4 KJV
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


If God is willing that all men come to repentance, and a knowledge of the truth, (see also 2 Peter 3:9), then apparently God destroys some people because they are unbelieving. If God could simply force them to believe, wouldn't he, seeing that it says that he wants all men to be saved and is not willing that any should perish?

Too much contradiction...

marhig said:

Grace doesn't enable us to obey, we have freewill and a choice to make always. If grace enabled us to obey, none of us would ever sin.

God doesn't want robots, he wants us to be a willing sacrifice and to give our lives freely, and wants us to deny our fleshly lusts and obey him. We have a fight on our hands. And it starts within our own hearts. If we're not turning from sinning, then we're not obeying God.

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Believing while sinning since birth

Rosenritter said:

God does NOT always get what he wants. This is a pretty simple proof.

Matthew 23:37 KJV
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mark 10:21-22 KJV
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(22) And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


2 Peter 3:9 KJV(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If we grant that Jesus was God for the first two examples,

1. Jesus many times would have gathered Jerusalem under his wings, but they would not.
2. Jesus wanted the man to follow him, but the man would not.
3. The Lord is willing that all men should come to repentance, but it seems that some will not.

So there are some examples where he doesn't get what he wants.

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He works with what he knows. His actions are perfect while we think he wants something.

Rosenritter said:

If that were so, then how do you explain this?

Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Timothy 2:4 KJV
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


If God is willing that all men come to repentance, and a knowledge of the truth, (see also 2 Peter 3:9), then apparently God destroys some people because they are unbelieving. If God could simply force them to believe, wouldn't he, seeing that it says that he wants all men to be saved and is not willing that any should perish?

Too much contradiction...

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If you see a contradiction, start again at the foundation and work up again with God rules everything first just the way he desires. It's your fault you don't see it. You migh see it if you try again.

Rosenritter said:

Then when Jesus said that "whomever loses his life for my sake shall find it" he didn't know that Salvation has nothing to do with doing anything? Or that bit about he who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not fit to enter the kingdom of God?

It looks like to me that you are trying to force marhig into saying something he hasn't. Christ's sacrifice covers all sins, but that sacrifice must be 1) accepted and 2) acted on. Christ's forgiveness is given with the admonition, "Go and sin no more." Trees that produce no fruit shall be rooted up and destroyed. Faith without works is dead, and no faith at all.

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Christ Jesus did everything for whosoever will to be saved. You provide absolutely nothing to be saved.

Christ's sacrifice is a gift and a gift has to be accepted.
marhig's acceptance is on JWs' terms and NOT on His for marhig rejects the BLOOD shed in her stead.

I am not trying to make marhig say anything. We have been having a conversation and in her testimony of her salvation and by marhig's own testimony she accepts Jesus; however, she rejects the BLOOD and God say "only when I see the BLOOD....."

TulipBee said:

When God say believe, you will believe. Its a command, not a request.

Grace enabled you to Obey

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God commands all to obey but not all obey.

The Bible tells why people do not obey, and it is NOT because God did not command them.

John 3:19, 20; Acts 7:51; Isaiah 30:9; 65:2; 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; 1:25; 1:28; 2:8; 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19; Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; 7:24; Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16.

marhig said:

I believe that we are saved of our past sins by the grace of God through faith. We are then to go sin no more. But if we have true faith then we will be obedient to God. If we're not obedient to God, then we're not truly faithful. If we don't obey God then we are workers of sin and God and sin don't mix. We should be turning from sin when we know the living God and obey him and the holy spirit will be guiding us in the truth, and should obey him.

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Couldn't you have answered my question in a clear and concise way?

Do you believe you have to obey to get saved, or do you believe you only have to have faith to get saved?

Just say plainly either, "I believe we have to believe and obey to get saved."

Or

Just plainly say, "I believe we only have to have faith to get saved."

marhig said:

I don't know what on earth you're going on about, but you've got me all wrong, faith without works is dead. I've said right along that we must obey God and turn from sinning. And that wilful sinning isn't acceptable with God. When I say it's nothing I do. I mean in my heart, I'm not the one changing my heart, the holy spirit does that. But I absolutely believe that we are to obey God and deny ourselves turn from sin and follow Jesus.

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Now that I have explained to you that you do say we only have to have faith to get saved, do you understand now when I said this:

You have been saying it is nothing we do, but then I give scripture that proves we have to do something and now you say you believe that.

See that is why I know you have been influenced by false teachers, for you say the exact same things they say, but when you hear the truth you say you believe; but when it comes to you describing your beliefs and explaining them, you repeat what the false teachers say.

False teachers like to say it is nothing we do, it is nothing we do. BUT THAT IS THE VERY WAY WE RECEIVE SALVATION---by something WE DO! What do we have to do to get to God the Father, who is ETERNAL LIFE? WE. HAVE. TO. DO. WHAT. JESUS. SAYS. TO. DO.

I am the way and the truth and the life. See John 14:6.

Think about what Jesus says, and tell me why you miss that we have to do what the truth and life says to get where we want to go.

marhig said:

I believe that we are saved of our past sins by the grace of God through faith.

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We do not get chosen for salvation just because we have faith.

We have to have right action with that faith to make it alive, or else it it dead.

We have to do what has been commanded, preached, and taught for the good news, what has been taught by the forerunner John the baptizer who prepared the way for Jesus, and even Paul, and Jesus Christ himself.

John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80).

We are still to confess that we are sinners, and to repent, to prepare the way for Jesus Christ into our lives.

John the baptizer tells people to repent of their sins and prove their repentance by their deeds:

Matthew 3:2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.


That is the exact same thing apostle Paul says:


Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.


Jesus Christ himself said to repent of our sins.


Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Matthew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.


What did the people of Nineveh do? Did they just have faith? No, they did not.

Matthew 12:41 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them—and now, something greater than Jonah is here!

Marhig,

To get back to the topic of the thread and you saying Jesus is not God, how do you explain this:


God says that people will call Jesus God, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and that is what I call him.

Isaiah 9:6 HCSB For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.


Why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus the names that God gave him?


In the Old Testament, God calls HIMSELF THE FIRST AND THE LAST. That is exactly what Jesus calls himself in Revelation!

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

JESUS calls HIMSELF the FIRST and the LAST in Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Read Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Jesus calls himself the SAME EXACT name that God calls Himself. So then, why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus God?

God's Truth said:

God commands all to obey but not all obey.

The Bible tells why people do not obey, and it is NOT because God did not command them.

John 3:19, 20; Acts 7:51; Isaiah 30:9; 65:2; 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; 1:25; 1:28; 2:8; 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19; Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; 7:24; Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16.

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None wants to obey.
With this, God already got involved.
You don't want God involved.
You want to follow men instead.

God's Truth said:

Couldn't you have answered my question in a clear and concise way?

Do you believe you have to obey to get saved, or do you believe you only have to have faith to get saved?

Just say plainly either, "I believe we have to believe and obey to get saved."

Or

Just plainly say, "I believe we only have to have faith to get saved."

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That's a trick question that really shouldn't be answered. Both are correct, both are wrong, depending on what slant you choose to take on the response, whether an attempt to understand or for hostility. "God's Truth" do you accept the authority of the whole scripture?

Jas 2:17-20 KJV
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

It is not one, or the other, it is the synergy of both. A faith without works is a dead faith, a false faith. Works without faith are worth nothing by themselves as well. So if you are asking someone to say "I believe we only have to have faith to get saved" you speak against scripture. Anyone heart is such that their actions produces good works in the name of the Lord is his servant and thus our friend.

The Trinity

marhig said:

The blood on the doorposts isn't the blood on calvary's cross, it's the life of Christ within, the blood on calvary's cross won't do anything for a person who is baptised and say that they believe in Christ yet their hearts are wicked within, no matter how much they profess know God the natural blood of Jesus won't save them if they're living wrong. It's the life within that stops the destroyer entering in. It's the spiritual blood of Christ covering our hearts, not his natural blood.

And I still find it hard to believe that people honestly think that Jesus has done it all. And they can just live how they like and they're going to heaven. That's not what is taught in the Bible.

And the blood of Christ is on the doorposts of my heart, and I feel the spirit within, working on my heart and I know God and Christ. I don't see it as Christs natural blood, but his blood spiritually. He came by blood, which was him living it out naturally and water which is the word, and it's his life within us spiritually that saves us.

I don't believe in the cross as you do, I see that Jesus bore his cross in his lifetime. And I'll leave my eternal destination in Gods hands. Only he knows my heart and no one else can judge me.

All you talk about is his death, what about his life? There's so much more to Jesus than his death on the cross!

There's no point in carrying on, i understand how you believe. But, I don't believe as you do.

By the way, I'm not a JW, I've never been to any church.

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Marhig,

We have peace.

I believe that the blood knows your heart.

I believe you have made this clear, but I'm asking.

Who is judged at final judgment?

You or Jesus in your place?


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

Rosenritter said:

That's a trick question that really shouldn't be answered.

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That is a lie. There is no trick question. Just because you do not have understanding does not mean you should make such a judgment.

There are many people who do not believe repent is about sins, and there are people who believe if we do anything else besides JUST BELIEVE have condemned themselves to a works salvation.

Rosenritter said:

Both are correct, both are wrong, depending on what slant you choose to take on the response, whether an attempt to understand or for hostility. "God's Truth" do you accept the authority of the whole scripture?

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You are a confused person who is guilty of the hostility you falsely accused me of having.

Rosenritter said:

Jas 2:17-20 KJV
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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Those scriptures rebuke you.

Rosenritter said:

It is not one, or the other, it is the synergy of both. A faith without works is a dead faith, a false faith. Works without faith are worth nothing by themselves as well. So if you are asking someone to say "I believe we only have to have faith to get saved" you speak against scripture.

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Are you that ignorant? That is what THEY TEACH. They teach the false doctrine of faith alone.

Rosenritter said:

Anyone heart is such that their actions produces good works in the name of the Lord is his servant and thus our friend.

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You are hindering people from being saved. We must believe and obey to get saved, and to stay saved.

TulipBee said:

None wants to obey.
With this, God already got involved.
You don't want God involved.
You want to follow men instead.

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Where do you EVER get that NONE wants to obey?


Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

God's Truth said:

That is a lie. There is no trick question. Just because you do not have understanding does not mean you should make such a judgment.

There are many people who do not believe repent is about sins, and there are people who believe if we do anything else besides JUST BELIEVE have condemned themselves to a works salvation.



You are a confused person who is guilty of the hostility you falsely accused me of having.



Those scriptures rebuke you.


Are you that ignorant? That is what THEY TEACH. They teach the false doctrine of faith alone.



You are hindering people from being saved. We must believe and obey to get saved, and to stay saved.

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Why are you arguing against me? Half the time it sounds like you condemn me and the other half you are agreeing with me. If you want to show me wrong, show me wrong from scripture, not from posturing or unsupported phrases.