The Terrible God of Calvinism

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Dialogos said:
Canard #1, Calvinists love and believe in John 3:16 and believe, like pretty well everyone else, that anyone who believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

Next.....


Which the Calvinists actually believe far more than you do, Pate.

How many of those that Christ died to save for exhaust God's long-suffering and perish in the fires of hell because God's patients ran out on them, hhmm Pate?

50%? 60%? 70% or more?

You see, we Calvinists actually believe that God is long suffering and unwilling that any of the elect should perish and we believe that 0% of those Christ died to save will perish.

Its actually the Calvinist that believes that verse.


Amen.


Pate's obejction here paraphrased:
" You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Rom 9:19 ESV)​

The Apostle Paul's answer:
"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Rom 9:20-23 ESV)​

Robert, You aren't going to get a better answer than the one Paul gives you.




Why do you think people reject God's Son in the first place.

Hint, the answer has everything to do with the depravity of the human soul.


Who are you, Oh Robert Pate to talk back to God?
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If you believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell, then you have no right to call yourself a Christian. That doctrine came right out of the pits of hell.

Man is not so far depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel. Thousands heard and believed the Gospel on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Some of which participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.

"Faith comes by hearing and believing the Gospel" Romans 10:17.

You need to call on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.
 
Dialogos

Dialogos

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
If you believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell, then you have no right to call yourself a Christian.
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This isn't a response, just a personal attack.

Pate said:
That doctrine came right out of the pits of hell.
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God being in control is a doctrine out of the pits of hell?

:think:

Pate said:
Man is not so far depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.
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Romans 3:10-11

Pate said:
Thousands heard and believed the Gospel on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:41. Some of which participated in the crucifixon of Christ, Acts 2:36.
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That's what ya call, grace.

Pate said:
"Faith comes by hearing and believing the Gospel" Romans 10:17.
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Agreed.

So how do you deal with the fact that so many have lived and died without ever hearing?

Did God try and save them with equal effort as everyone else?

:think:
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
NickCharles said:
Creating a straw man is a logical fallacy. We are elected unto salvation. Election is not justification, predestination, etc.
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It is not a straw man but an accurate distillation of TULIP, which you evidently don't understand.

Following off the premises assumed by Calvinism: if you were unconditionally elected in eternity past, the limited atonement of Christ covered you from eternity past. The quickening to believe it will irresistibly be extended to you in this life, resulting in you persevering to the end. But the actual saving of you was declared as good as done before the overthrow of the world. That's TULIP.

All of the above is God's unthwartable will for you from eternity past, if Calvinism is true and if you're one of the elect. So from eternity past you have been as good as saved, long before you believe the Gospel; indeed long before you even existed.

Thus, faith is not the means through which one is saved. Election is. That's why Calvinism, specifically TULIP, is a denial of Paul's gospel.
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
musterion said:
It is not a straw man but an accurate distillation of TULIP, which you evidently don't understand.

Following off the premises assumed by Calvinism: if you were unconditionally elected in eternity past, the limited atonement of Christ covered you from eternity past. The quickening to believe it will irresistibly be extended to you in this life, resulting in you persevering to the end. That's TULIP.

All of the above is God's unthwartable will for you from eternity past, if Calvinism is true and if you're one of the elect. So from eternity past you have been as good as saved, long before you believe the Gospel; indeed long before you even existed.

Thus, faith is not the means through which one is saved. Election is.
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Again, another straw man. We are saved by faith through grace. We are justified by grace.

But let me ask this: do you believe that you were saved from eternity past? Or do you hold to Open Theism where God doesn't know all future events?
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
When God elected you to salvation in eternity past, was there ever any chance since then that you could still end up in the lake of fire?
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
musterion said:
What I actually believe is not one of your options, and I see no point in discussing it with someone as shallow as you.
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I'll explain why it's important. If you believe that God is omniscient, then you must also believe that He knew you'd be saved. Written in stone. Nothing you can do will change that. So you could say that you are saved by omniscience.

Now, we both know that's not the case. But it's the same type of argument that you are making against election. And the fact that every post of yours is peppered with insults makes me believe that you are not as secure with your view as you'd like to be. Otherwise, we'd be able to have a discussion without the insults, accusations, and defensiveness.
 
Ask Mr. Religion

Ask Mr. Religion

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Robert Pate said:
Man is not so far depraved that he cannot hear and believe the Gospel.
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As I have often noted with you, this is the fundamental issue that sets one down one path (synergism) or another (monergism). All other topics necessarily spring from this.

If you want to cavil about Calvinists (among others), you would do well to spend your efforts in attempts at supporting your view: God wills to save all men if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist.

AMR
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
As I have often noted with you, this is the fundamental issue that sets one down one path (synergism) or another (monergism). All other topics necessarily spring from this.

If you want to cavil about Calvinists (among others), you would do well to spend your efforts in attempts at supporting your view: God wills to save all men if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist.

AMR
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You would do well to stop studying religion and spend more time studying the Bible.

You would find that God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for everyone and that he imposses salvation on no one.

The examples set forth in the scripture tell us... "That whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

No one is forced to call upon his name. People come to Christ to be saved by him because the Holy Spirit calls them. I was called several times and resisted the call several times.

I have witnessed rejection of Christ many, many times. I have also witnessed acceptance of Christ many, many times. The Holy Spirit is present in the preaching of the Gospel.

I have seen Christ rejectors, grit their teeth, clench their fist, cross their arms, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they will grab hold of something and hang onto it until their knuckles turn white, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit.

You give little value to the power of the Holy Spirit to bring someone to Christ. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. Many, don't enter in because of unbelief.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You would do well to stop studying religion and spend more time studying the Bible.

You would find that God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for everyone and that he imposses salvation on no one.

The examples set forth in the scripture tell us... "That whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

No one is forced to call upon his name. People come to Christ to be saved by him because the Holy Spirit calls them. I was called several times and resisted the call several times.

I have witnessed rejection of Christ many, many times. I have also witnessed acceptance of Christ many, many times. The Holy Spirit is present in the preaching of the Gospel.

I have seen Christ rejectors, grit their teeth, clench their fist, cross their arms, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they will grab hold of something and hang onto it until their knuckles turn white, while resisting the call of the Holy Spirit.

You give little value to the power of the Holy Spirit to bring someone to Christ. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. Many, don't enter in because of unbelief.
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False teaching, makes Salvation depend on what man does!

Those Christ lived and died for He believed for them when He obeyed the Law of God for them! You think He obeyed Gods Law without believing in Him? IF He believed in God then so did they!
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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Robert Pate said:
You would do well to stop studying religion and spend more time studying the Bible.
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I do so, Robert, daily, and am changed by them, but thank you just the same for the admonishment.

Now can you address the specifics of my post to which you are responding or do you prefer to just ignore them as is customary?

Is it not your view that God wills to save all men, if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist?

AMR
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Ask Mr. Religion said:
I do so, Robert, daily, and am changed by them, but thank you just the same for the admonishment.

Now can you address the specifics of my post to which you are responding or do you prefer to just ignore them as is customary?

Is it not your view that God wills to save all men, if they will use the prevenient grace given to them, which they are left at liberty to resist?

AMR
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The Gospel calls for a responce. No responce, no salvation, Hebrews 4:2.
 
OCTOBER23

OCTOBER23

New member
No one will go to hell because of sin,

they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

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1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved,

where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

GOD IS THE JUDGE
 
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