The Terrible God of Calvinism

glorydaz

Well-known member
The word of God is the means God uses to save. We cannot choose to believe, as you say. So either there's something about us that makes us believe (smarter, more humble, more spiritual, etc), or the change comes from without.

Yeah, I've heard that before. Rather than compare ourselves with others, why not compare ourselves with ourselves? So, what is it? That something about us that makes us different than what we were before we really "heard" God's word when it was being preached. I'm thinking people often have a very limited view of that word, "believe". Some believe something as head knowledge, but they aren't willing to believe in their heart. They refuse to trust what they are told. "There have to be some strings attached". "I know I can't be good enough". "Maybe later".

We aren't better, but we are willing to finally trust in our Creator instead of ourselves. We are brought to our knees by life's circumstances....by that unexplained something that we are missing. That person our Creator created us to be. That person knows (clearly seen and understood) that God is the giver of life, and He is offering us His greatest GIFT. We didn't do a thing to earn or deserve that Gift....when He sees we believe in our heart He bestows His gift of Life upon us.
 

NickCharles

New member
Yeah, I've heard that before. Rather than compare ourselves with others, why not compare ourselves with ourselves? So, what is it? That something about us that makes us different than what we were before we really "heard" God's word when it was being preached. I'm thinking people often have a very limited view of that word, "believe". Some believe something as head knowledge, but they aren't willing to believe in their heart. They refuse to trust what they are told. "There have to be some strings attached". "I know I can't be good enough". "Maybe later".



We aren't better, but we are willing to finally trust in our Creator instead of ourselves. We are brought to our knees by life's circumstances....by that unexplained something that we are missing. That person our Creator created us to be. That person knows (clearly seen and understood) that God is the giver of life, and He is offering us His greatest GIFT. We didn't do a thing to earn or deserve that Gift....when He sees we believe in our heart He bestows His gift of Life upon us.


Then we are back to where we were earlier. Finally trust in our creator is something that pleases God. The natural man cannot do so.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The word of God is the means God uses to save. .

Thanks to Musterion for highlighting this sentence. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Sorta makes short work of your previous claims. ;)

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Then we are back to where we were earlier. Finally trust in our creator is something that pleases God. The natural man cannot do so.

I did. Now I'm saved. You should, too.

According to you, God believes in Himself for us, and trusts Himself for us. Of course that means that man does have an excuse, but God says we have none.

As I told you before, you should ditch quoting Romans 8 if you continue to misunderstand what Paul was saying there. :nono:
 

moparguy

New member
The God of the Bible is not the same God of Calvinism. The God of the Bible, "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, that whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

(John 3:18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.​

Nevermind Pharoah, and sodom and gommorah, and anninias and saphira, and esau.

The Bible depicts God as being "Long-suffering and not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.

(II Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.​

Golly, silly me, I thought God got to define who this "you" is:

(II Peter 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The "you" are those who have a faith given them by Jesus Christ. You know.

Christians.

But nah, God's not able to define what he means, right pate?

The Psalms written by King David, paint a picture of God as being kind, just, merciful, righteous compassionate and long-suffering, Psalm 86:15.

(Psalms 7:11-13)
God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.

If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
he has bent and readied his bow;

he has prepared for him his deadly weapons,
making his arrows fiery shafts.​

There's this thing called, letting God tell us what he's like, instead of forcing our unbalanced preconceptions on him.

(Nahum 1:2-6)
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD is avenging and wrathful;
the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries
and keeps wrath for his enemies.

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.
His way is in whirlwind and storm,
and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
he dries up all the rivers;
Bashan and Carmel wither;
the bloom of Lebanon withers.

The mountains quake before him;
the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,
the world and all who dwell in it.

Who can stand before his indignation?
Who can endure the heat of his anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire,
and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.​

What do you do with these passages, pate?

Ignore them?

Treat them as if God shouldn't have put them into his revelation?


But the God of Calvinism is none of that. The God of Calvinism predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

Back to the ungodly slandering with untruths.

Calvin did not say WHY some are saved and others are not.

Calvin on romans 9:18:
That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this — that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed.

It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are sinners without works. You cannot make yourself a sinner simply because you were born into sin.

"For as by one man disobedience many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

If by fault you only mean that we have not made ourselves sinners by sinning, than that's proper.

If by "not our fault" you mean by extension, can't be held responsible, this is simply not true. God holds us responsible for being sinners, not merely for sinning.

A person is responsible for something because God has *said they are.* God establishes the rules; we don't and creation doesn't.

No one should be sentenced to hell because they are sinners. No one will go to hell because of sin, they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Which you cannot support with God's word.

If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. How can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a terrible thing as this?

Some of us are actually bound to the teachings of the bible and believe it's God's word and treat it as such.

(Proverbs 16:4) The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

(Romans 9:21-24)
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

(I Peter 2:8) and A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

(Jude 1:4) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

(Romans 11:36) For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
ALL things. Even those who will go to hell.

Is God love? Absolutely.

That in no way reduces the fact that God is also Justice, and Holiness, and is wrathful against sinners continually.

The Gospel is Good news because it saves us from the condemnation we justly deserve at the hands of a God who can be nothing less than wrathful against our sin, because our sin and our sinful nature goes against God's very nature.

God is not merely the justifier, he is JUST (righteous, following his law and nature fully in ALL of its aspects).
 

NickCharles

New member
The Terrible God of Calvinism

I did. Now I'm saved. You should, too.



According to you, God believes in Himself for us, and trusts Himself for us. Of course that means that man does have an excuse, but God says we have none.
Where have I stated or implied that God believes in Himself for us?
As I told you before, you should ditch quoting Romans 8 if you continue to misunderstand what Paul was saying there. :nono:


7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Romans 8:7-9

Paul clearly makes a differentiation between those in the flesh and those in the Spirit. I understand it quite well.

And just so we know what Paul means:

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
 

NickCharles

New member
Thanks to Musterion for highlighting this sentence. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Sorta makes short work of your previous claims. ;)



Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


The word of God is the gospel. I'm not sure how this was misunderstood.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
(John 3:18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.​

Nevermind Pharoah, and sodom and gommorah, and anninias and saphira, and esau.



(II Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.​

Golly, silly me, I thought God got to define who this "you" is:

(II Peter 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

The "you" are those who have a faith given them by Jesus Christ. You know.

Christians.

But nah, God's not able to define what he means, right pate?



(Psalms 7:11-13)
God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.

If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
he has bent and readied his bow;

he has prepared for him his deadly weapons,
making his arrows fiery shafts.​

There's this thing called, letting God tell us what he's like, instead of forcing our unbalanced preconceptions on him.

(Nahum 1:2-6)
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;
the LORD is avenging and wrathful;
the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries
and keeps wrath for his enemies.

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.
His way is in whirlwind and storm,
and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
he dries up all the rivers;
Bashan and Carmel wither;
the bloom of Lebanon withers.

The mountains quake before him;
the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,
the world and all who dwell in it.

Who can stand before his indignation?
Who can endure the heat of his anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire,
and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.​

What do you do with these passages, pate?

Ignore them?

Treat them as if God shouldn't have put them into his revelation?




Back to the ungodly slandering with untruths.

Calvin did not say WHY some are saved and others are not.

Calvin on romans 9:18:
That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this — that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed.



If by fault you only mean that we have not made ourselves sinners by sinning, than that's proper.

If by "not our fault" you mean by extension, can't be held responsible, this is simply not true. God holds us responsible for being sinners, not merely for sinning.

A person is responsible for something because God has *said they are.* God establishes the rules; we don't and creation doesn't.



Which you cannot support with God's word.



Some of us are actually bound to the teachings of the bible and believe it's God's word and treat it as such.

(Proverbs 16:4) The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

(Romans 9:21-24)
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

(I Peter 2:8) and A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

(Jude 1:4) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

(Romans 11:36) For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
ALL things. Even those who will go to hell.

Is God love? Absolutely.

That in no way reduces the fact that God is also Justice, and Holiness, and is wrathful against sinners continually.

The Gospel is Good news because it saves us from the condemnation we justly deserve at the hands of a God who can be nothing less than wrathful against our sin, because our sin and our sinful nature goes against God's very nature.

God is not merely the justifier, he is JUST (righteous, following his law and nature fully in ALL of its aspects).


Of course God is a God of judgment. He is the just judge. If he didn't judge sin he would not be righteous.

Jesus Christ bore the sins of the world for us. "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

The problem of sin has already been dealt with in the person of Jesus Christ. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.

You missed it. You missed the Gospel. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. You haven't found it. You have been blinded by Calvinism.

God is now at peace with the world because of Christ. "And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether there be things in the earth or things in heaven" Colossians 1:20.

No one needs to be predestinated. God has ALREADY reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ. Now, all, anyone, everyone that does nothing more than call upon the name of the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Shame.

I guess pate *won't* let God tell him what he means.

You, like most religious people, you have a wrong view of God.

You see him as a mean, cruel, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

That is NOT the nature of God at all.

The God of the Bible so loves us and the world, that he sends his only begotten Son into the world, to atone for the sins of the world, so that you can have eternal life by doing nothing more than believing in his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.
 
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NickCharles

New member
You, like most religious people, have a wrong view of God.



You see him as a mean, cruel, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.



That is NOT the nature of God at all.



The God of the Bible so loves us and the world, that he sends his only begotten Son into the world, to atone for the sins of the world, so that you can have eternal life by doing nothing more than believing in his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.


So back to this. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
So back to this. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?


This is probably why you are not a Christian.

You think that you are a Christian, but you are not one.

It is not God's will that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

If anyone goes to hell it will be because they have rejected Christ and his Gospel.

Does God know who these people are? I doubt it, because the angels in heaven rejoice over every sinner that repents and comes to Christ, Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10.

Does the sower know which seed will sprout and bear fruit?

For now, God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. When Christ returns we will then know who are his and who are NOT his.
 

NickCharles

New member
This is probably why you are not a Christian.



You think that you are a Christian, but you are not one.



It is not God's will that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.



If anyone goes to hell it will be because they have rejected Christ and his Gospel.



Does God know who these people are? I doubt it, because the angels in heaven rejoice over every sinner that repents and comes to Christ, Luke 15:7 and Luke 15:10.



Does the sower know which seed will sprout and bear fruit?



For now, God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. When Christ returns we will then know who are his and who are NOT his.


That doesn't answer my question. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
NickC

That doesn't answer my question. Does God create people He knows will end up in hell?

Most definitely ! In fact He Created them to that end ! Prov 16:4 ; 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
 

NickCharles

New member
NickC







Most definitely ! In fact He Created them to that end ! Prov 16:4 ; 2 Pet 2:12



12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


I understand that. I'm trying to see how many times he will avoid answering my question.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
The God of the Bible is not the same God of Calvinism. The God of the Bible, "So loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, that whosoever that believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Canard #1, Calvinists love and believe in John 3:16 and believe, like pretty well everyone else, that anyone who believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

Next.....

Pate said:
The Bible depicts God as being "Long-suffering and not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9.
Which the Calvinists actually believe far more than you do, Pate.

How many of those that Christ died to save for exhaust God's long-suffering and perish in the fires of hell because God's patience ran out on them, hhmm Pate?

50%? 60%? 70% or more?

You see, we Calvinists actually believe that God is long suffering and unwilling that any of the elect should perish and we believe that 0% of those Christ died to save will perish.

Its actually the Calvinist that believes that verse.

Pate said:
[/B] The Psalms written by King David, paint a picture of God as being kind, just, merciful, righteous compassionate and long-suffering, Psalm 86:15.
Amen.

Pate said:
But the God of Calvinism is none of that. The God of Calvinism predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. It is not our fault that we are sinners, its Adam's fault. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are sinners without works. You cannot make yourself a sinner simply because you were born into sin.

"For as by one man disobedience many were MADE sinners" Romans 5:19.

We inherited sin from our first Father Adam. We all have Adam's blood coursing through our veins. This means that the God of Calvinism is unjust because he sends sinners to hell.
Pate's obejction here paraphrased:
" You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (Rom 9:19 ESV)​

The Apostle Paul's answer:
"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Rom 9:20-23 ESV)​

Robert, You aren't going to get a better answer than the one Paul gives you.



Pate said:
No one should be sentenced to hell because they are sinners. No one will go to hell because of sin, they will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ.
Why do you think people reject God's Son in the first place.

Hint, the answer has everything to do with the depravity of the human soul.

Pate said:
If you are going to believe in Calvinism, then you must believe that God creates and gives life to people that are reprobates. He creates and gives life to these reprobates for the sole purpose of sending them to hell. How can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a terrible thing as this?
Who are you, Oh Robert Pate to talk back to God?
 
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