Jesus is God? Or Jesus is begotten of God?

Greg Jennings · Oct 4, 2015

Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

patrick jane · Oct 4, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

You should explore older posts and study in Our Triune God Thread by LON. Many folks debated, studied, and discussed this in very very great detail. It may be in Theology Club though, now that I think of it, so this thread may do well. You can't get the answers in a few posts. You can, but then the debate begins.

Colossians 1:14 KJV and 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

intojoy · Oct 4, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Jesus is God

Greg Jennings · Oct 4, 2015

intojoy said:
Jesus is God

What is your explanation for Jesus not knowing when the seals of revelation will be broken while saying that "his Father" does?

Greg Jennings · Oct 4, 2015

patrick jane said:
You should explore older posts and study in Our Triune God Thread by LON. Many folks debated, studied, and discussed this in very very great detail. It may be in Theology Club though, now that I think of it, so this thread may do well. You can't get the answers in a few posts. You can, but then the debate begins.

Colossians 1:14 KJV and 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

I'll take a look. Thanks for the suggestions

intojoy · Oct 4, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
What is your explanation for Jesus not knowing when the seals of revelation will be broken while saying that "his Father" does?

Self imposed limitations of His divine sovereignty

Greg Jennings · Oct 4, 2015

intojoy said:
Self imposed limitations of His divine sovereignty

Ok. That's interesting

intojoy · Oct 4, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Ok. That's interesting

I.e.
God can't destroy the earth with a flood. Why? He certainly has the ability. God can't destroy the earth again with a flood because He placed a self imposed limitation on His divine sovereignty

1Mind1Spirit · Oct 5, 2015

intojoy said:
I.e.
God can't destroy the earth with a flood. Why? He certainly has the ability. God can't destroy the earth again with a flood because He placed a self imposed limitation on His divine sovereignty

Wise up goofball.

It is no limitation on his sovereignty, his sovereign self made a promise that nobody else could make or break. :chuckle:

keypurr · Oct 5, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Jesus is the flesh son of God.

However, the spirit being IN him is a form of God.

There is only one God, the Father. John 17:3

Greg Jennings · Oct 5, 2015

keypurr said:
Jesus is the flesh son of God.

However, the spirit being IN him is a form of God.

There is only one God, the Father. John 17:3

That's what I got from reading the new testament also

keypurr · Oct 5, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
That's what I got from reading the new testament also

Welcome to TOL.

Heb 1:3 speaks of the express image of God, since God is a spirit, this SON is also a spirit. This spirit being went into Jesus at his anointing.

This is what I see.

intojoy · Oct 5, 2015

1Mind1Spirit said:
Wise up goofball.

It is no limitation on his sovereignty, his sovereign self made a promise that nobody else could make or break. :chuckle:

Don't hate me cause I'm pretty

freelight · Oct 5, 2015

'Begotten' indicates a generation in time.......

'Begotten' indicates a generation in time.......

Greg Jennings said:
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Relationally speaking, two persons cannot ever be the same person, ever. Even a traditional-orthodox concept of the Trinity accepts this, whereby they compound 3 personalities into one 'essence', noting difference only in 'personality', but not in essence.

As far as omniscience is concerned, Jesus is obviously not totally omniscient since a prior, original and greater infinite knowledge is only had by The Father. Jesus is subordinate to a Higher Power than himself, and freely attests to that in the gospels.

Futhermore, one significant point made by Arius in the 4th century was that only God the Father is 'unbegotten', while Jesus Christ is 'begotten' revealing he had an conception point, a 'beginning' of existence before creation. Anything 'unbegotten' is timeless/unborn...and such can only be applied to 'pure Deity' which alone is without beginning. Anything 'begotten' has an origin and beginning.

bybee · Oct 5, 2015

freelight said:
Relationally speaking, two persons cannot ever be the same person, ever. Even a traditional-orthodox concept of the Trinity accepts this, whereby they compound 3 personalities into one 'essence', noting difference only in 'personality', but not in essence.

As far as omniscience is concerned, Jesus is obviously not totally omniscient since a prior, original and greater infinite knowledge is only had by The Father. Jesus is subordinate to a Higher Power than himself, and freely attests to that in the gospels.

Futhermore, one significant point made by Arius in the 4th century was that only God the Father is 'unbegotten', while Jesus Christ is 'begotten' revealing he had an conception point, a 'beginning' of existence before creation. Anything 'unbegotten' is timeless/unborn...and such can only be applied to 'pure Deity' which alone is without beginning. Anything 'begotten' has an origin and beginning.

A thought: "The Word was with God...." I have thought that God's Thoughts precede His actions? Himself as multi-faceted entity would not preclude Jesus/Son/Savior as being God Himself?
This is theological stuff and I am open to instruction and or correction in this area.

aikido7 · Oct 5, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Christians here at TOL, do you believe that God and Jesus are the exact same being? Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

From the words of the new testament it seems to me that Jesus is a separate entity. For example he says that even he doesn't know when the end times are, and that only God does. How could Jesus not know what God does if they are the exact same being?

Wanting to find a definitive answer to these questions depends on which theology you recognize in the New Testament.

Jesus always denies his own divinity.

But in the Gospel of John--which has little history and much early church theology--Jesus is made to say:

--"I and the Father are One"

...and

--"The Father is greater than I."

Different traditions can be found in the New Testament.

jamie · Oct 5, 2015

keypurr said:
Jesus is the flesh son of God.

So are we.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Romans 8:14 NKJV)

jamie · Oct 5, 2015

keypurr said:
However, the spirit being IN him is a form of God.

Is this the same Spirit that John was born with?

Paul says there is only one Spirit. Jesus was led by that Spirit.

There are many sons of God.

jamie · Oct 5, 2015

Greg Jennings said:
Or do you think that Jesus is divine and begotten of God but not the same being?

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26 NKJV)

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... (John 1:14 NKJV)

Greg Jennings · Oct 5, 2015

jamie said:
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26 NKJV)

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... (John 1:14 NKJV)

And is this "us" God + Jesus or God + angels or God + both?

Jesus is God? Or Jesus is begotten of God?

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