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Thread: REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

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    Yeah Crow,
    I think the debate is about what the Bible actually says.

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    Originally posted by Freak
    What would that be?



    What about verbal assualt?

    Verbal assault--are you refering to the part about cursing your parents or blasphemy? What God says stands. He commanded death. Would I have the strength to carry this out? No. I'll flat out tell you that I don't have the strength and determination that God does, anymore than I would have the guts to strike someone dead when they promised something to Him, then reniged. I wouldn't have the guts to kill people for for a lot of stuff. Does that mean because I am weak and a coward in some areas that God is wrong? No--it means I have a long way to go. It is my responsibility to bring myself in line with the mind of God, not vice versa.

    Who's outdoing God?

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    Originally posted by Untouchable
    Yeah Crow,
    I think the debate is about what the Bible actually says.
    The Bible must be understood correctly though.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Crow says:

    Verbal assault--are you refering to the part about cursing your parents or blasphemy? What God says stands. He commanded death. Would I have the strength to carry this out? No.
    Every kid in the world would have been put to death then.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Crow, God called for the following to be put to death:

    -male who was not circumcised: Genesis 17:14
    -Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread: -Exodus 12:15
    -Manufacturing anointing oil: Exodus 30:33
    -Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple: -Leviticus 17:1-9
    -Consuming blood: Leviticus 17:10
    -Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: Leviticus 7:20
    -Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: Leviticus 19:5-8
    -Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18
    - Going to the temple in an unclean state: Numbers 19:13
    -Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11
    -A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22
    -Gluttony and excessive drinking: Deuteronomy 21:20

    Gluttony is another one...who in America hasn't committed this sin?
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Freak
    The Bible must be understood correctly though.
    That is true. If it were, there would be no need for Christians to debate as we do. I don't see difference of opinion as a salvation issue for Christians. What I do see is that salvation through grace issues and criminal law issues tend to get tangled into a Gorgon's knot along with symbolic vs criminal law issues.

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    "The bible has to be understood correctly though"

    Right. It's a hard thing to do.


    People always use the verse that jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it to say all the laws they consider to be convenient or good to still stand.
    But what does fulfill mean? Didn't the Bible say that none of it would pass away until it had been fulfilled? Didn't Jesus come to fulfill it?

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    Originally posted by Crow
    That is true. If it were, there would be no need for Christians to debate as we do. I don't see difference of opinion as a salvation issue for Christians. What I do see is that salvation through grace issues and criminal law issues tend to get tangled into a Gorgon's knot along with symbolic vs criminal law issues.
    What I'm getting at is this----we're all guilty of sin. We are unrighteous. All of us deserve hell and death but there is a thing called grace.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Freak
    Crow, God called for the following to be put to death:

    -male who was not circumcised: Genesis 17:14
    -Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread: -Exodus 12:15
    -Manufacturing anointing oil: Exodus 30:33
    -Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple: -Leviticus 17:1-9
    -Consuming blood: Leviticus 17:10
    -Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: Leviticus 7:20
    -Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: Leviticus 19:5-8
    -Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18
    - Going to the temple in an unclean state: Numbers 19:13
    -Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11
    -A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22
    -Gluttony and excessive drinking: Deuteronomy 21:20
    I know this. These are symbolic laws, not criminal laws. These do not deal with one person's crime against another. Peter was told to eat unclean animals by God to show that the symbolic law had passed, and Paul preached that circumcision and baptism were unnecessary, also parts of the symbolic law. Just as wearing a garment of mixed fibers, such as 50/50 cotton-polyester would be forbidden under the symbolic law, but OK for a Christian. Neither Peter not Paul said that the criminal penalties for criminal activities were abolished.

    [/QUOTE]Gluttony is another one...who in America hasn't committed this sin? [/QUOTE]

    Everyone has.
    Last edited by Crow; August 22nd, 2003 at 06:31 PM.

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    Originally posted by Untouchable
    "The bible has to be understood correctly though"

    Right. It's a hard thing to do.
    Not really. Start looking at the Old Covenant through the superior covenant--the New Covenant-and watch yourself be liberated.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Crow
    I know this. These are symbolic laws, not criminal laws. These do not deal with one person's crime against another.
    Curious. Did these symbolic laws cease to be in effect?
    Last edited by Freak; August 22nd, 2003 at 06:35 PM.
    Jesus Loves You

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    I have Freak. I see the underlying grace, beneath the veneer of symbolic law and works. I see that the law still exists, and that we are saved from the spiritual penalty as Christians only by grace. I also see that grace does not negate crimimal penalty--the thief on the cross is a good example of that.

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    Originally posted by Crow
    I also see that grace does not negate crimimal penalty--the thief on the cross is a good example of that.
    Like the apostle Paul (the murderer) too?
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Freak
    Curious. Did these symbolic laws cease to be in effect?
    No, they still condemn those separated from Christ. Those covered by grace are no longer condemned by these laws.

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    Originally posted by Crow
    No, they still condemn those separated from Christ. Those covered by grace are no longer condemned by these laws.
    Should these Laws be obeyed by the righteous & unrighteous or just the unrighteous?
    Jesus Loves You

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