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Thread: REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Freak
    I didn't see any New Covenant support for the government to carry out the death penalty.
    But before I go, Freak. Did you bother to make an argument versus any of these points being made.


    Jesus Supports Capital Punishment



    Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law even to the keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19). He blasted the Pharisees for giving their own ideas precedence over God's commands:





    "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

    "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother; and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mark 7:8-11



    Jesus reaffirmed the capital statutes of God's law. Not only the murderer (Rev. 13:10; 1 Tim. 1:8-9; Rom. 13:4), but even the one who curses a parent must be put to death (Ex. 21:17 and Lev. 20:9) just as God commanded. God's commands to execute the one who strikes or curses a parent are the death penalty statutes that liberal Christians are the most embarrassed over. However, Christ was not at all embarrassed over His Fathers commands. Jesus repeated these commands without caveat or reservation.



    Laying aside the commands of God has its consequences. In America, murder has become the number one cause of death among young black males, and suicide is the number three cause of death among all teenagers. There is a death penalty when children disrespect their parents. If Jesus' telling of God's command is ignored, countless children will die terrible deaths at the hands of other children and by their own hands. On the other hand, if God's command were enforced, rather than ridiculed, the shedding of innocent blood would virtually disappear in our land. God's wisdom would save thousands of children. man's wisdom destroys them.



    While Jesus was on the cross the Romans inflicted the death penalty on the two criminals2 next to Him. Christ said nothing in their defense, or against their crucifixions. One of those two mocked Christ. In response, the other criminal (whom Jesus would immediately declare righteous, Luke 23:43) said of their punishments, "we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong" (Luke 23:41). What did this forgiven criminal, this newly justified man, say about the death penalty? Bottom line: the criminals were getting their just punishment. The dying criminal knew the truth, as he said, "we indeed" are "justly" punished.


    Please, if you can, explain why this could be wrong?
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

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    If Jesus was against the death penalty then why did he respond to Pilot that he had no power if the Father in Heaven hadn't given it to him?

    When God spoke through the prophets that if a man shed the blood of another man then by man shell his blood be shed. Was he talking about a family feud of a death penalty?

    When Paul said that the government was a terror to the evil and not the good because the government did not bare the sword in vain, Was he referring to the death penalty residing in the hands of the government?
    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

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    I'm not necessarily against the death penalty, but I think this is something interesting for the Christians here to consider.

    Jeffery Dahmer was a professing Christian at the time of his murder.
    Supposedly he had been saved a couple of years before, and had seriously changed.
    If he had been swiftly executed, wouldn't he have spent eternity in hell according to the Bible?
    A valuable human being suffering eternal torment would seem to be a bad thing. It seems weird to diss on the reprieve of death he was granted that resulted in him coming to know Christ in a way that would purportedly lead to his eternal salvation. It would seem to be a great and joyous thing.

    Another example would be David Berkowitz.
    You can see the website for his ministry by clicking on the link below.
    http://www.forgivenforlife.com/

    What do you guys think about this?

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    Originally posted by Untouchable
    I'm not necessarily against the death penalty, but I think this is something interesting for the Christians here to consider.

    Jeffery Dahmer was a professing Christian at the time of his murder.
    Supposedly he had been saved a couple of years before, and had seriously changed.
    If he had been swiftly executed, wouldn't he have spent eternity in hell according to the Bible?
    "Professing" does not make a Christian. I can profess to be anything without actually being such. Whether Dahmer accepted Christ while in prison, who can say? Had he been swiftly executed, he would be in hell. If he "professed" only without actually being, the destination remains the same.


    A valuable human being suffering eternal torment would seem to be a bad thing. It seems weird to diss on the reprieve of death he was granted that resulted in him coming to know Christ in a way that would purportedly lead to his eternal salvation. It would seem to be a great and joyous thing.
    God Himself specified the method in which capital punishment took place, and it is not for mankind to ammend this just because we think we've happened onto something that the Almighty overlooked when He created the universe and it's contents, including ourselves and the criminal law He laid down for us. It's a great and joyful thing if Dahmer did accept Christ as savior, but it is a lousy idea to try to improve upon what God Himself told us to do, on the odd chance that we can scoop up another Dahmer or Berkowitz for salvation. I trust that God knows exactly what He is doing, and that I'm not in any position to act as His advisor.

    Another example would be David Berkowitz.
    You can see the website for his ministry by clicking on the link below.
    http://www.forgivenforlife.com/

    What do you guys think about this?
    As above. God is specific in His instructions to us. We have the freewill choice to follow Him or to defy Him.

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    Originally posted by Untouchable
    I'm not necessarily against the death penalty, but I think this is something interesting for the Christians here to consider.

    Jeffery Dahmer was a professing Christian at the time of his murder.
    Supposedly he had been saved a couple of years before, and had seriously changed.
    If he had been swiftly executed, wouldn't he have spent eternity in hell according to the Bible?
    A valuable human being suffering eternal torment would seem to be a bad thing. It seems weird to diss on the reprieve of death he was granted that resulted in him coming to know Christ in a way that would purportedly lead to his eternal salvation. It would seem to be a great and joyous thing.

    Another example would be David Berkowitz.
    You can see the website for his ministry by clicking on the link below.
    http://www.forgivenforlife.com/


    What do you guys think about this?
    If God would've wanted Mr. Dahmer, God would've gotten him before he was swiftly executed. Otherwise, if the death penalty were maintained, would every person on death row receive a waiting period to see if they became saved or not? If so, who would determine the time frame?
    Last edited by wholearmor; August 22nd, 2003 at 05:50 PM.
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    Fair enough Crow.
    Personally, I see very little difference between taking a man's life by electric chair, and taking it by locking him behind bars until he dies.
    It just helps the jury sleep easier at night knowing that they technically didn't decide to "kill" him.

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    Originally posted by Untouchable
    Fair enough Crow.
    Personally, I see very little difference between taking a man's life by electric chair, and taking it by locking him behind bars until he dies.
    It just helps the jury sleep easier at night knowing that they technically didn't decide to "kill" him.
    This isn't about what you want, it's about what God wants.
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    Originally posted by Untouchable
    Fair enough Crow.
    Personally, I see very little difference between taking a man's life by electric chair, and taking it by locking him behind bars until he dies.
    It just helps the jury sleep easier at night knowing that they technically didn't decide to "kill" him.
    I see a difference in that it is contrary to God's teachings on how we are to carry out criminal justice. God does not instruct us to have a life penalty. I think that the confusion arises when prisons are mentioned in the N.T.--people forget that Roman law was in effect, hence prisons and crucifixions, which were not a part of God's criminal justice system.
    Last edited by Crow; August 22nd, 2003 at 05:58 PM.

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    Originally posted by Em7add11
    Better, yes.

    But as to whether he completely throws out the old law I would say consider what Jesus follows that original paragraph with.
    Consider Paul words of instruction:

    But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
    Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.


    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.


    I grant without question that Jesus establishes a new covenant with us. However, I wouldn't say He's eased the rules at all,
    Do you still keep any of the ceremonial laws?
    Jesus Loves You

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    Originally posted by Crow
    I see a difference in that it is contrary to God's teachings on how we are instructed to carry out criminal justice. God does not instruct us to have a life penalty. I think that the confusion arises when prisons are mentioned in the N.T.--people forget that Roman law was in effect, hence prisons and crucifixions, which were not a part of God's criminal justice system.
    What would you recommend we do to those who assault people?
    Jesus Loves You

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    :Crickets:
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

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    I don't know whether or not Bob actually believes what he said in his post what he says about Jesus condoning the death penalty for rebellious children and the like, but I do take issue with that.

    My parents and I always had a good relationship.
    However, we did get in the occasional spat. On one occasion one of my parents provoked me to wrath in a hateful, undeserving tirade and attack. After being cut deeply over and over again by their hateful words, I "cursed" at them. I had handled myself very well until then, so I was really ashamed of myself for losing my cool.
    I really regretted having said that, because it seemed to be just the reaction my parent was looking for.

    We apologized the next day, and our relationship moved on.
    Are you saying I committed a capital offense that night?

    I just can't see a right minded parent ever wanting to have their children killed (with the exception of perhaps violent crimes), whether they were rebellious or not.

    I know that almost everyone on this board has had their time of rebellion, or broken relationships with parents.

    As a Christian, you've been forgiven much. Would you risk being the servant that owed 4.5 billion dollars, and had his debt pardoned, yet after his release he turned on a debtor that owed him the equivalent of a couple of hundred bucks and had him thrown into debtors prison?

    I really believe that there is some truth in "An eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind."

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    Crow,
    I wasn't saying that a life sentence is "as good as" the death penalty. I was saying I could view it as a dishonest (with yourself)attempt to get around actually taking someones life.

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    Originally posted by Freak
    What would you recommend we do to those who assault people?
    I recommend we do whatever God tells us to, Freak. It's tough, because sometimes God tells us to do things that our human fallable minds are too weak to accept easily. God specified different things in cases of assault, from restitution to mutilation, and I would have to go back and look, but I believe in some cases it may call for death--the individual penalties for assault are an area in which I am weak, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.

    I believe it is a really terrible idea for humans to try to outdo or "correct" God. I wouldn't have the guts to let people in my own family go to hell for rejecting God, yet this is going to happen. God has a lot more guts than I do--I either trust him for the tough stuff he has told me as I trusted him for salvation, or he's only my "halfway" God of parts of my life.

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    Originally posted by Crow
    I recommend we do whatever God tells us to, Freak.
    What would that be?

    ... but I believe in some cases it may call for death--the individual penalties for assault are an area in which I am weak, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.
    What about verbal assualt?

    I believe it is a really terrible idea for humans to try to outdo or "correct" God. I wouldn't have the guts to let people in my own family go to hell for rejecting God, yet this is going to happen. God has a lot more guts than I do--I either trust him for the tough stuff he has told me as I trusted him for salvation, or he's only my "halfway" God of parts of my life.
    Who's outdoing God?
    Jesus Loves You

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