For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
- Thread starter chickenman
- Start date
Apparently you had no idea what was going on. But thanks for the neg rep anyway. :thumb:
kmo was being silly, in response to a chat box comment.
He's alright. :up:
He's alright. :up:
Sozo again
New member
chickenman...
Thank you, my friend, for taking time to allow me to share some of my thoughts and questions with you on the phone today.
My wife and I are starting at the beginning of this thread, and reading the posts from those who are contributing an explanation of a MAD perspective.
We would like to ask our questions as they come up, only when there is something we do not understand. Hopefully, others will still respect the rules of this thread, and allow us to consider your responses, which we thank you for in advance.
1. Did the Holy Spirit dwell in those after Christ's resurrection (Pentecost, Stephen, and so on) as He does in the Body of Christ? If not, what is the difference.
2. When John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is this different than the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ?
Thank you, my friend, for taking time to allow me to share some of my thoughts and questions with you on the phone today.
My wife and I are starting at the beginning of this thread, and reading the posts from those who are contributing an explanation of a MAD perspective.
We would like to ask our questions as they come up, only when there is something we do not understand. Hopefully, others will still respect the rules of this thread, and allow us to consider your responses, which we thank you for in advance.
1. Did the Holy Spirit dwell in those after Christ's resurrection (Pentecost, Stephen, and so on) as He does in the Body of Christ? If not, what is the difference.
2. When John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is this different than the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ?
People skills are not my thing. I know that is shocking, but I don't understand how people don't see it. I asked why did Pilate's sign say, which they did to all criminals, "the King of the Jews", and the pharisees complained saying they want it to say "he said he is King of the Jews".
Why on both counts? And like many questions, they get ignored, and try to reconcile the two different accounts by plugging from Jesus speaking of believing in him, and completely throwning out all his teaching of the law and orders to obey the pharisees.
∅2L84U;2209964 said:
I can't say I have ever seen a flame descend on people who claim to be Pentecostal. It was one of the signs that the new Kingdom would come, just as Peter recounted it from Joel.
I am not going to copy and paste the whole thing. He descirbes the tribulation, again. Jacobs trouble. And how the day of the LORD is coming.
Joel 2
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming...
And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. “ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
He is saying two things. There is no reason to say it twice, such as he will baptize with Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit. If you ask any lay person from a non Biblical perspective what is baptism under fire, they will give an answer of difficulty or tribulation. Joel covers it.
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Fire, water, etc. are used various ways in various contexts. Fire can be the power or purification of God in the believer, judgment (lake of) of the unbeliever, etc.
In Acts, the GIVING of the Spirit to the Church was evidenced by the symbol of tongues of fire over their heads. Since the Spirit is only given once when the Church is birthed, we do not see this every time a Christian receives the Pentecostal experience. In the same chapter, the RECEIVING of the Holy Spirit (post-conversion Pentecostal experience vs initial reception of the Spirit when we receive Christ as Lord/Savior) by an individual was proven by the initial, physical evidence of speaking in tongues. This is the classical (vs charismatic) doctrinal distinctive in line with Scripture and experienced by hundreds of millions of believers today (counterfeit, demonic, fleshly tongues does not disprove Spirit-given genuine tongues). The second work of grace/entire sanctification is a wrong Wesleyan doctrine and should not be confused with the Pentecostal experience (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:4; I Cor. 12-14).
In Acts, the GIVING of the Spirit to the Church was evidenced by the symbol of tongues of fire over their heads. Since the Spirit is only given once when the Church is birthed, we do not see this every time a Christian receives the Pentecostal experience. In the same chapter, the RECEIVING of the Holy Spirit (post-conversion Pentecostal experience vs initial reception of the Spirit when we receive Christ as Lord/Savior) by an individual was proven by the initial, physical evidence of speaking in tongues. This is the classical (vs charismatic) doctrinal distinctive in line with Scripture and experienced by hundreds of millions of believers today (counterfeit, demonic, fleshly tongues does not disprove Spirit-given genuine tongues). The second work of grace/entire sanctification is a wrong Wesleyan doctrine and should not be confused with the Pentecostal experience (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:4; I Cor. 12-14).
See what I mean? Nobody thinks that is what it means unless it was in the Bible, and then it gets twisted to fit a theory. Instead of just reading what Joel says it is.
Just a quick drive-by, so no time to take a stab at 2L8's questions. But I'll reiterate the request again to not make this a debate thread. A respectful request to you, again, godrulz, to let this be ONLY for people who have a sincere interest in learning the position (ultimately agree or not).
Thanks,
Randy
Thanks,
Randy
Sozo again
New member
Take your time, and thanks again.
∅2L84U;2209964 said:chickenman...
Thank you, my friend, for taking time to allow me to share some of my thoughts and questions with you on the phone today.
My wife and I are starting at the beginning of this thread, and reading the posts from those who are contributing an explanation of a MAD perspective.
We would like to ask our questions as they come up, only when there is something we do not understand. Hopefully, others will still respect the rules of this thread, and allow us to consider your responses, which we thank you for in advance.
1. Did the Holy Spirit dwell in those after Christ's resurrection (Pentecost, Stephen, and so on) as He does in the Body of Christ? If not, what is the difference.
2. When John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is this different than the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ?
I've got a few minutes, so I'll take a swing at question #2 for now, since it might be a little easier. I'll get back to #1 when I have a little more time for a thoughtful response. And both questions have answers that are related.
And by the way, any other MidActs'er is welcome to jump in. Thanks, Nick, for jumping in.
When John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is this different than the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ?
Yes. With John, we actually see references to three different baptisms.
"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. therefore every tree which does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughtly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:10-12
Baptism #1: John's water baptism unto repentance for the remission of sins (see also Luke 3:3)"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughtly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:10-12
Baptism #2: Jesus' baptism with the Spirit
Baptism #3: Jesus' baptism with fire
#1 is obvious. #2 is specifically what happened at Pentecost.
"...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:5
According to prophecy, the very prophecy to which Peter referred at Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21; "...but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel..."), the Spirit would be poured out, initiating events that would lead to the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:28-32). Joel doesn't say that all hell will break loose immediately. He describes how the outpouring of the Spirit would result in people prophesying, having dreams, etc. Then would come signs in the heavens and on the earth. Then comes the "great and awesome day of the Lord."
In the "day of the Lord" would be the third baptism to which John referred: the baptism with fire.
We can see in the Day of the Lord that the Lord will slaughter the enemies of Israel (Joel 3:9-17, e.g.). And He'll also pour out His wrath on His own chosen people who have rebelled against/rejected Him (Is. 65:11-12; Mal. 4:1-3; e.g.). When we look at the wrath that the Lord will pour out on wicked Israel, then John's words really fall right into place with prophecy, as he immediately follows "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" with:
"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12
That's the Lord's judgment, the same one He told in a parable in Matt. 13 (wheat and tares).
So John tB referred to the prophesied outpouring of the Spirit, which would manifest itself in several ways among those on whom He was poured out. And He referred to the the judgement that would follow that event.
The baptism with the Spirit was also said to enable them to walk in God's statutes and judgments (Ez. 36:27). Jesus told his apostles that the Spirit would abide with them forever and be their Helper and Teacher, bringing to their remembrance all that Jesus taught them during His earthly ministry (John 14:26). It's a baptism WITH the Spirit. Not a baptism BY the Spirit. Jesus is the baptizer at Pentecost (again, "...He will baptize you with the Spirit...".
But the Spirit is the baptizer for us (I Cor. 12:13). The Spirit baptized us into Christ. And you know so well the implications of being in Christ. Baptism with the Spirit didn't make them righteous. But our baptism into Christ does, doesn't it?
Did that make sense? Sorry I'm not very concise. I'll expand on any point if you like.
Thanks,
Randy
Oopps, sorry, thx for the reminder. It has been dormant so I forgot this was the format. I follow too many threads and just jumped in off the email notification. Humble apologies.
No problem. Thanks, godrulz.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Excellent explanation on the baptisms, :chicken:
Isn't that the exact reason why Peter quoted Joel?
Sozo again
New member
Thanks cm, we will be looking over your post soon, and perhaps coming up with more questions.
As a MidActster I just wanted to make an interesting observation in the form of a rhetorical question.
If Peter and the other apostles had believed that Christ's death and resurrection had freed them from all obligation to the Law as given by Moses, and had tried to preach a Pauline style "gospel of the uncircumscision" throught Israel, what kind of success would they have had?
The answer I believe, is that they would have had no success at all, and would have been a great detriment to God's plans. They would not have been taken seriously anywhere in Israel, even by jews who may have been sincerely seeking God, for they would have been seen as heretics, no better than heathen gentiles. And so we have the "transition period" of both sets of believers in Christ co-existing in the early stages of Christianity. The uncircumscision, having never been burdened with the law were free from it, and the circumscision, living as jews and evangelising to the jewish nation, still observing the Law, but being sanctified by their faith in Christ.
If Peter and the other apostles had believed that Christ's death and resurrection had freed them from all obligation to the Law as given by Moses, and had tried to preach a Pauline style "gospel of the uncircumscision" throught Israel, what kind of success would they have had?
The answer I believe, is that they would have had no success at all, and would have been a great detriment to God's plans. They would not have been taken seriously anywhere in Israel, even by jews who may have been sincerely seeking God, for they would have been seen as heretics, no better than heathen gentiles. And so we have the "transition period" of both sets of believers in Christ co-existing in the early stages of Christianity. The uncircumscision, having never been burdened with the law were free from it, and the circumscision, living as jews and evangelising to the jewish nation, still observing the Law, but being sanctified by their faith in Christ.
Hi, voltaire.
Well...as I see it, since they would not enter into the New Covenant with God until He delivered the kingdom to them, then the outpouring of the Spirit as foretold by Joel would be an event that would precede the New Covenant.
At Pentecost, it gave them a taste of what would be in the world to come.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come... Heb. 6:4-5
But yes, as part of the New Covenant, they would have a new heart, with the law written on it, and the Spirit would enable them to perform that which was written on their hearts.
Thanks for joining in, HEAT. Welcome to TOL!
Randy
Randy