I don't remember exactly what he said, but I'm sure he'll say it again.kmoney said:
ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Sozo said:
The opposite of you (just kidding).
I dunno.
Maturity includes growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ, as Paul exhorts us to do. It is the opposite of immaturity. It can cover a variety of things. Surely it is not mature to hate your brother (I Jn.), to gossip, to lie, to lust, etc. To remain unchanged from our former way of life and call it holy or perfect is not mature, complete, or 'perfect'. One can be morally, relationally, emotionally, physically, intellectually, etc. immature or mature.
Believers who cater to the fleshly desires instead of growing in doctrine (knowledge) and practice (experience) are like infants on milk. We need to move to meat and obey all that He shows us as He conforms us in the image of Christ. This involves the whole person (see verses in my post that talk about spirit, soul, and body, in this context).
It is immature for a believer to dabble in sin. It is mature to let Him express His life in and through us so our purity is actual, not just theoretical or contrary to reality.
In talking about positional vs progressive/practical sanctification, I do not want to endorse the myth of the 'carnal Christian', who is possibly not a Christian at all. Someone who is supremely selfish and fleshly in their ultimate intention and subordinate choices evidence that they have not received Him as Lord and Savior. A believer who has an isolated lapse is not supremely selfish, but selfish in one choice. This does not make them an unbeliever (even in your view, though our theory may differ). The 4 spiritual laws supported this category, but I think there is a better way to understand the nominal Christian who is no different than the pagan, except maybe on Sunday.
John Wesley felt that holiness should be reflected in our lives, not just in doctrine that we are holy in Him. I do not think this idea makes it another Jesus or another false gospel, like you accuse me of. Going away for the weekend. As always, be assured of my love for you and all the saints who call on the name of the Lord, our righteousness.
But isn't that exactly what many Christians believe, even if they say they don't? No Christian will say they have a license to sin, but how many Christians will say they can sin and it's ok because they're saved?godrulz said:
So either people have a license to sin or we disagree with what it means to have a license to sin. :idunno:
Sozo
New member
There is no such thing as a "license to sin". And I would imagine that there are people who think that they can do whatever they want because they are under God's grace. I've never met someone like that, but I'm sure they exist.
This problem is, godrulz, Knight, perhaps yourself, and many others on this site, have a view of sin that is contrary to Paul's clear presentation in Romans.
Sin is the result of one man's transgression, which brings death to ALL men. Because of that one transgression, ALL men are made sinners. All men are dead, and sin is the evidence of our death.
Sin reigns in death. Only that which is dead can sin. That is why the body, which is dead, still functions in the realm of sin and death.
When people think that they have the power or capacity, in the energy of their flesh, to sin or not sin, they are only fooling themselves. The flesh can never please God or meet His standard of righteousness or perfection. The flesh does what it's nature demands. It sins.
I wish you guys would just take the time to really think about what I'm saying here. It's so fundemental to the gospel. Proclaiming anything else is another gospel.
Just read slowly and prayerfully, Romans 1-8. Read it with the mindset that God has removed us from one domain and placed us into another. We have been transferred from darkness to light. We are no longer under the law of sin and death, but under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
This problem is, godrulz, Knight, perhaps yourself, and many others on this site, have a view of sin that is contrary to Paul's clear presentation in Romans.
Sin is the result of one man's transgression, which brings death to ALL men. Because of that one transgression, ALL men are made sinners. All men are dead, and sin is the evidence of our death.
Sin reigns in death. Only that which is dead can sin. That is why the body, which is dead, still functions in the realm of sin and death.
When people think that they have the power or capacity, in the energy of their flesh, to sin or not sin, they are only fooling themselves. The flesh can never please God or meet His standard of righteousness or perfection. The flesh does what it's nature demands. It sins.
I wish you guys would just take the time to really think about what I'm saying here. It's so fundemental to the gospel. Proclaiming anything else is another gospel.
Just read slowly and prayerfully, Romans 1-8. Read it with the mindset that God has removed us from one domain and placed us into another. We have been transferred from darkness to light. We are no longer under the law of sin and death, but under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
mercyschild
New member
Sozo said:
I agree with you that there is no such thing as a 'license' to sin, however I think you are missing a huge part of what humanity is; christian or not; and that is fallen. Even once we claim God's grace we are still a part of this fallen imperfect world.
Romans 1-8, although it is talking about the new life, is not by any means saying that once we are Christian we will be perfect, as it seems you are taking it to mean. True perfection will come after we are done with this earthly life; we strive for perfection here, through the way we live, but we will not attain it here-ever. No, we will never be good enough for salvation, but Christ's blood has taken that 'need' away. We are good enough for God, now, simply because his son died for us, all we have to do is accept it, and stop trying to live for ourselves.
Sozo
New member
kmoney said:
Why can't they do whatever they want?
Let me clarify.
Anyone can do whatever they want whether they are Christians or not, but no one can do whatever they want without consequences, whether they are Christians or not.
Those consequences are the natural result of their actions, not a direct judgment from God. To say that God takes your actions into account, negates the cross. The world was judged, the verdict was guilty, the penalty was death, and Jesus took it.
