ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

elected4ever said:

When are you going to get saved? Until you do shut up.

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So lets see... just who IS saved?

You? Sozo? Lighthouse? Oh wait Lighthouse said that Fred the Christian sinned :doh:

I guess that leaves just you and Sozo.

Poly said:

The one who wills to do good.

Roman 7:21".... that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good"

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When I am speaking to you it is the person I see. It is no different than Paul. But we have been told that there are 2 yous that occupy the same space. One is dead the other is alive. The one sins and the other is righteous. One is born of earthly parents and the other is born of God. You guys just lump both into the same basket and then clam what one does both have done. You have no discernment in this issue. Is that the limit of you understanding? No wonder you are so screwed up theologically.

Clete said:

You acted as if I wasn't talking about consequences of God, kmoney!

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Do you think there are other consequences from God for our sin? (exclude eternal condemnation, I'm talking about ones similar to the ones mentioned in that passage)

What the crap are we talking about here?
You object to eternal security as being a license to sin and I show you all the consequences a man could ask for aside from eternal condemnation in Hell and you act like I don't have a point! What is going on? I feel like we should be having a pretty much linear conversation here that should be easy enough to follow. Why are you making me repeat myself without cause?

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This is my fault again, I apologize. When I said, "Generally that means one thing" I was talking about eternal condemnation, as you mentioned above, and I didn't think of the passage you quoted. So basically in my mind a license to sin is being able to sin without fear from facing eternal consequences from it. I still am excluding all consequences that aren't from God because sin is between you and God. However the passage from 1Cor talks about a consequence from God that isn't eternal punishment so I may need to revise my definition of a license to sin. For now I'm leaving it as the ability to sin without any fear of eternal punishments.

Yes! That is, to the degree that such sacrifices actually atoned for anything. The priests sacrifices were only a temporary covering until Christ Himself made the real sacrifice. This is why believers, prior to the cross, we taken after their deaths to Abraham's Bosom rather than directly to heaven. They waited there until the real Day of Atonement which Christ Himself fulfilled.

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I question the teaching about Abraham's Bosom, but that isn't necessarily relevant to this.

Well it doesn't matter what you think, now does it?

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I didn't say it did.

That's either what David meant or it isn't. And Paul makes the same point when he talks about how the blood of bulls and goats was never able to save anyone. It isn't dead animals that God wants, it's people's hearts. This is a consistent theme throughout the Bible but that does not mean that following the Mosaic Law was optional for people under that covenant. IT WAS NOT OPTIONAL!!! If you willfully chose not to follow God's law, you were God's enemy. It's as simple as that.

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I didn't say it was optional. I'm saying there was no sacrifice under the Mosaic Law for murder and adultery which is why David said God didn't want any sacrifice or offering. God only wanted a contrite heart.


Hopefully I at least clarified a few things for you.......

elected4ever said:

When are you going to get saved? Until you do shut up.

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:rotfl: You and Sozo's accusations that people aren't saved are just ridiculous.

Knight said:

So lets see... just who IS saved?

You? Sozo? Lighthouse? Oh wait Lighthouse said that Fred the Christian sinned :doh:

I guess that leaves just you and Sozo.

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The way you distort what is being said I wonder if you know anything about what is being said to you. maybe i should treat you all as unsaved and just continue to teach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ anyway. maybe someday a little light will go on and you will realize that hay Jesus really did do more than just forgive sin.

kmoney said:

:rotfl: You and Sozo's accusations that people aren't saved are just ridiculous.

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I really don't know what is so funny about these people going to hell?
You are mocking what the bible says, not what we say. They are condemned by their own words, not mine. I don't have to say anything at all. However, because I care, I do.

godrulz said:

Your wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions (begging the question/circular reasoning...I just posted an alternate understanding of flesh vs spirit/will, intellect, emotions somewhere in response to your post...see it).

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That doesn't answer the question. We agree that the you outside of Christ can, and does, sin. But there is another you. Not that there is really a separation, but there is a difference of identity. You were not who you are now, in Christ. In Him you are a new creation. So when that comes to pass you should no longer identify yourself as you once were. You should identify yourself as that new creation. And even though the "flesh" is dead, it still lives in the technical sense. But we should not identify it as such. We are to count ourselves dead to sin, and alive to Christ. Identify with Him, not with yourself.

Knight said:

I think your question has been answered about 18 times (at least).

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Maybe I keep missing it.

I am in the Spirit.

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But I am a human being. My name is Knight (well not really ) and this person named Knight is still dealing with the flesh. Sometimes I do fleshy things (the Bible call these things sin - Sozo calls them "misbehaving", e4e call them "stupid acts").

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Actually, Sozo calls them sin. And so do I. I didn't for a while, because I was misunderstanding the something. But now I realize what I didn't get.

Therefore, while I am identified with Christ I still sin because of the flesh. Thankfully that sin has already been covered (Rom 4:7-8).

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And if you identify with Christ, and not yourself, can you say that it is you who sins? Or is it not who you are anymore?

Your argument flies in the face of: the Bible, common sense, common vernacular, communication, the definition of sin and probably a few other things.

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How so?

Sozo said:

Thank you for your honesty.

We have two different gospels. I fully reject yours in every way.

I do not have the same Jesus as you.

At least things have been brought out into the open, and there is no more room for speculation.

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I really think you should let a discussion get further, before you assume something so solid, in a case like this.

I will say this one thing: When we grieve God, by sinning in the flesh, our relationship is affected. But not on His account. It is on ours. He does not distance Himself in any way from us. We distance ourselves from Him. And in that course, He chases us.

Lighthouse said:

Maybe I keep missing it.

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Did you miss it again?

Actually, Sozo calls them sin. And so do I. I didn't for a while, because I was misunderstanding the something. But now I realize what I didn't get.

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Since when does Sozo call it sin? Isn't that what we are debating?

And if you identify with Christ, and not yourself, can you say that it is you who sins? Or is it not who you are anymore?

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Even if the sin I do is only in my flesh... I still do it! Shouting to the world that it wasn't me because of a complex theological argument is unnecessarily confusing which is probably why the apostle Paul used the word sin in regard to Christians.

How so?

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Lighthouse said:

I wuill say this one thing: When we grieve God, by sinning in the flesh, our relationship is affected. But not on His account. It is on ours. He does not distance Himself in any way from us. We distance ourselves from Him. And in that course, He chases us.

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Fine. Yet a change is still a change. The question was "does our sin/misbehaving affect our relationship with God?" Sozo unequivocally answered "NO! You on the other hand are acknowledging some affect, which of course I agree with.

PastorKevin said:

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

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Take a look at it now.

When we sin we are in the flesh, when we do right we are following the Spirit. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I find it impossible to believe this text is talking about Paul as an unredeemed sinner, BECAUSE an unredeemed sinner is a slave to sin, and there is no war going on inside.

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Well, there are a lot of indications that he is speaking of then, and now: "was," "but now," "now," things like that...

PastorKevin said:

ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Two types of sinners:
1. Saved sinners on their way to Heaven.
2. Unsaved sinners on their way to Hell.

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Knight beat me to it.

Knight said:

The question was "does our sin/misbehaving affect our relationship with God?" Sozo unequivocally answered "NO!

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Sozo said:

Grieving God does not effect your releationship/fellowship with god, except perhaps in your own mind, because you have judged His (mind).

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Knight said:

Did you miss it again?

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I caught it that time.

Since when does Sozo call it sin? Isn't that what we are debating?

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This isn't about whether or not it's sin [it used to be partially about that, at least on my part]. But it's about who sins. Who we are in the flesh, or who we are in the Spirit. If we recognize ourselves as in the Spirit, then we should not identify with our flesh, and therefore with the sin in our body of death.

Even if the sin I do is only in my flesh... I still do it! Shouting to the world that it wasn't me because of a complex theological argument is unnecessarily confusing which is probably why the apostle Paul used the word sin in regard to Christians.

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My flesh sins, but I do not identify with my flesh, or the sin dwelling within. That is the bottom line. That is the nutshell of all we [Sozo, e4e, and I] are saying. And I also know that SOTK said the same thing before he left, and I also know that someone else on this board, who I think should say something, agrees with us.

Fine. Yet a change is still a change. The question was "does our sin/misbehaving affect our relationship with God?" Sozo unequivocally answered "NO! You on the other hand are acknowledging some affect, which of course I agree with.

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So you agree that it is on our part, and our part alone?

Lighthouse said:

My flesh sins, but I do not identify with my flesh, or the sin dwelling within. That is the bottom line. That is the nutshell of all we [Sozo, e4e, and I] are saying. And I also know that SOTK said the same thing before he left, and I also know that someone else on this board, who I think should say something, agrees with us.

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Well then, I guess there are more than three folks who are wrong.

What about, "Do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies?"
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What about it?

So you agree that it is on our part, and our part alone?

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Of course not! But I am willing to accept whatever change you will concede, after all a change is a change.

In reality it's more than just on our part and we have ample biblical evidence to show that. We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit Eph 4:30, when God grieves He grieves! God doesn't want to see us do stupid things! That doesn't mean our standing in Him is any less but He grieves none the less.

Calvinists argue that we cannot move God, they are wrong just as you are wrong.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Knight said:

Well then, I guess there are more than three folks who are wrong.

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You don't identify with your sin, do you?

What about it?

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It substantiates what you are saying, and what I am saying. The only problem is that you're missing the point of what I am saying.

Of course not! But I am willing to accept whatever change you will concede, after all a change is a change.

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Okay, what effect is there on God's part?

In reality it's more than just on our part and we have ample biblical evidence to show that. We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit Eph 4:30, when God grieves He grieves! God doesn't want to see us do stupid things! That doesn't mean our standing in Him is any less but He grieves none the less.

Calvinists argue that we cannot move God, they are wrong just as you are wrong.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

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I never said we couldn't move Him, or grieve Him. We can, and we do. But that does not distance Him from us on His part. Does it? "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more."

Sozo.... as per your signature....

John: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9

You do realize that verse means exactly what it says right??? The problem is you fail to distinguish who the audience was. 1 John is written to those in the circumcision and if they sinned they were not "in Him" any longer and had to once again seek forgiveness. (that isn't the case for the Body)

Back up a chapter or two.....

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Is that you Sozo????

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Is that you Sozo???

1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Is that you Sozo???

1John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

"My little children"??? Sozo, the audience is John's converts, John's "little children" who were under the Law (not grace like we are). Sozo all of the above is the context for 1 John 3:9, so if you are going to appeal to 1 John you better take the whole enchilada!

1John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Is that you Sozo??? Do you keep the Law?

So now we get to.....

1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Which is followed by....

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

The Law Sozo!!! The Law!!!

1John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John is all about the Law! We (the Body) are not under the law. You are reading the wrong mail and therefore you have confused a simple gospel message and made it a difficult one by mashing together the Law and grace.

1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Does the Body have to "keep the commandments"???

1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Sozo... what is a "sin not leading to death"?

1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

1John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Ya see Sozo? They weren't sealed - but we are!!!

Failing to rightly divide the truth causes all sorts of wackiness and this is yet one more example.

Lighthouse said:

Okay, what effect is there on God's part?

I never said we couldn't move Him, or grieve Him. We can, and we do. But that does not distance Him from us on His part. Does it? "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more."

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Did anyone say that God is "distanced" (besides you)?

The point is we can grieve God, thats it! That's the point! Sozo rejects that point.

Sozo says the following verse means something other than what it so plainly states..... "Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. "

Since you went to all the trouble to type all of that, I suppose I should respond...

Knight said:

The problem is you fail to distinguish who the audience was. 1 John is written to those in the circumcision and if they sinned they were not "in Him" any longer and had to once again seek forgiveness. (that isn't the case for the Body)

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Are you or are you not "born of God"?

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."

Are you a "whoever", or has Christ been divided also?

We'll start there, and then I'll continue.