Creation vs. Evolution II

marhig said:

Yes I agree with that, but it does also say that a day is a thousand years.

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Yes, and a thousand years as a day. But does that mean that the thousand years after the tribulation might last only 24 hours?

marhig said:

To me I see it meaning that God doesn't go by a 24 hour period of time like we do. He's timeless.

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I agree. However God defines what a day is for us in Gen. 1:5 ".*5*God called*the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”*And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

We can't apply timelessness to the hundreds of times in the OT that the word day is used. God tells us that He speaks to us not in mysterious words, but clearly.*

marhig said:

T
*But saying that, I also believe that if God wanted to create the whole universe within 24 hours he could. He can do anything and I have complete faith in him.

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God could have created everything in an instant...I agree. But, He tells us He created in six days.*

marhig said:

*
Here in the Bible are verses which say the word day but don't mean an actual 24 hour period

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The verses don't really say that, but I understand what you mean. The word ' day' (yom in Hebrew) has a variety of meanings but always easily understood by the context.
2 examples
A) In my fathers day, men worked 10 hours a day, but only during the day.
3 different meanings of the same word, but easily understood by context.*
B Gen. 2:3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.4*This*is*the history*of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the*Lord*God made the earth and the heavens,
2 diifferent meanings of the same word but understood by context

marhig said:

Also, I%2

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6days said:

Yes, and a thousand years as a day. But does that mean that the thousand years after the tribulation might last only 24 hours?
I agree. However God defines what a day is for us in Gen. 1:5 ".*5*God called*the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”*And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

We can't apply timelessness to the hundreds of times in the OT that the word day is used. God tells us that He speaks to us not in mysterious words, but clearly.*
God could have created everything in an instant...I agree. But, He tells us He created in six days.*

The verses don't really say that, but I understand what you mean. The word ' day' (yom in Hebrew) has a variety of meanings but always easily understood by the context.
2 examples
A) In my fathers day, men worked 10 hours a day, but only during the day.
3 different meanings of the same word, but easily understood by context.*
B Gen. 2:3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.4*This*is*the history*of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the*Lord*God made the earth and the heavens,
2 diifferent meanings of the same word but understood by context

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I haven't read right through this thread, so if you have said something similar elsewhere then that good and we agree on something

I see much of that differently from you, but here isn't the place to go into it. As others just rip those who see things through the spirit to bits and they only see everything naturally.

And the thousands years after tribulation can be anything to God yes it can mean 24 hours or a thousand years. Our time isn't Gods time! Again I see all that differently!

Hawkins said:

Do you understand the predictability of science, or not?

Show us how populations evolve from a single cell to a bird or mammal, predictably.

To put it simpler to you, just show us by your calculation, under what conditions and how many generations for a single cell to evolve to a mammal, of which how many generations are required to form the heart. This is what evolution is, and it has nothing to do with biology. It remains your deception to try to equate the two.

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Typical creationist two-step. You claimed that evolutionary theory wasn't applicable to other fields of science. I demonstrated that claim to be false. You respond with "Now you have to explain the entire history of life on earth".

You further illustrate how it's impossible to advocate creationism honestly.

Josefly said:

Hawkins said:

TOE itself is the biggest false science with its approach hardly applicable to any other science. What do you have other than the attempts to mix up biology with evolution to sound as if they are the same?

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*You claimed that evolutionary theory wasn't applicable to other fields of science. I demonstrated that claim to be false. You respond with "Now you have to explain the entire history of life on earth".

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Jose...you seem to have a very difficult time to defend your belief system in an honest manner. Hawkins statement, and the subsequent one, are straight forward and correct. It isn't difficult to see he is differentiating between emperical science /biology and common ancestry beliefs.*

Emperical science results in new technologies...advancements in medicine...improved living conditions. Common ancestry beliefs have resulted in increased racism....genocides and shoddy medical conclusions.*

6days said:

Jose...you seem to have a very difficult time to defend your belief system in an honest manner.

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Says the habitual unrepentant liar, as evidenced by...

Hawkins statement, and the subsequent one, are straight forward and correct. It isn't difficult to see he is differentiating between emperical science /biology and common ancestry beliefs.

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Repeating lies does not make them true.

Common ancestry beliefs have resulted in increased racism....genocides and shoddy medical conclusions.*

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You just can't stop lying. There really is something wrong with you on a very basic, fundamental level.

6days said:

Jose...you seem to have a very difficult time to defend your belief system in an honest manner. Hawkins statement, and the subsequent one, are straight forward and correct.

Emperical science results in new technologies...advancements in medicine...improved living conditions. Common ancestry beliefs have resulted in increased racism....genocides and shoddy medical conclusions.

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6days,...you seem to have a very difficult time to defend your belief system in an honest manner. Empirical science has resulted in guns which can be used to kill people or to get food to feed your family, nuclear energy for power plants or for atomic bombs, nerve gases so the dentist can fill your teeth while you sleep or cause children to die horrible deaths in besieged cities, airplanes to take you to exotic far-away places or to carry bombs delivering death and destruction, rockets to carry scientific instruments to the moon or to rain horror down on London.

How knowledge from science is used is a matter of moral choices, not of scientific advancements.

redfern said:

6days said:

*Emperical science results in new technologies...advancements in medicine...improved living conditions. Common ancestry beliefs have resulted in increased racism....genocides and shoddy medical conclusions.

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Empirical science has resulted in guns which can be used to kill people or to get food to feed your family, nuclear energy for power plants or for atomic bombs, nerve gases so the dentist can fill your teeth while you sleep or cause children to die horrible deaths in besieged cities, airplanes to take you to exotic far-away places or to carry bombs delivering death and destruction, rockets to carry scientific instruments to the moon or to rain horror down on London.*How knowledge from science is used is a matter of moral choices, not of scientific advancements.

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*
So... we are agreeing? Yes,*emperical science can also be used for evil. Common ancestry though is a belief system which has not contributed to advancements in science. That belief system has*resulted in increased racism....genocides and shoddy medical conclusions. (And putting a pygmy in the 'monkey cage' in a zoo).*

6days said:

Common ancestry though is a belief system which has not contributed to advancements in science.

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It's like you just can't help yourself....you just have to lie, lie, and lie some more.

And you're the person claiming to be advocating for "God's word"? The same text that lists as one of God's commandments, "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

This is fascinating.

MichaelCadry said:

Dear redfern,

We are believers in …

Michael

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Michael, you may be well-intentioned, but I have made the point before – and you seem not to take the hint. You are wasting your time and mine authoring long nonsensical harangues in response to my posts. I am frankly not interested in conversations with someone who is scientifically illiterate and who lives in their own fantasy world. Please don’t be rude and waste both my time and yours.

marhig said:

It depends which 7th day and which rest you are talking about? Firstly the Sabbath to the Jews is Saturday and to the Christians it's Sunday? And Jesus didn't rest on the Sabbath, he carried on doing Gods work.

And we also enter into Gods rest. Did we actually enter into his rest on an actual seventh day or did we enter into his rest through Christ? I believe every day is the Sabbath once we enter into God's rest. And what I mean by that is once the spirit of God has rested upon us, then we have entered into Gods rest. And the Sabbath then is when we rest from our own works and we do the works of God through Christ by the spirit.

1 Peter 4

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy*are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Hebrews 4

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.*There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God*did*from his.*Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

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You're veering off topic a bit. Let's try to bend it back by closing off those questions:

1. The Sabbath is any divinely ordained period of rest from labor. For the Jews, it included the seventh day of the week and seven annual festival days, which might fall on any day of the week.

2. The seventh day of the week (or Sunday) is not defined as a Sabbath. Not for Jew or Christian. Christians are not commanded to observe sabbaths (or new moons, etc). See Col 2:16-17 KJV

3. The sabbath days are symbolic of things to come. Thus "entering into his rest" points to a future time, a future day of the Lord. This period of time can be discerned from context.

4. However, the seventh day Sabbath commandment from Moses to Israel does further reinforce and define that the "days" in the first chapters of Genesis are meant to be literal twenty-four (24) hour days. Genesis has already defined the "day" as a period of light and dark, of evening and morning. So in explaining the seventh-day observance to Israel, Moses says:

Exodus 20:11 KJV
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The understanding of Moses and his audience was that the "days" he was referencing were normal days, an equivalence of one morning and evening. That's why he can equate "sabbath day" with the "seventh day" of rest from creation.

How can one suppose that "day" could be any thing other than twenty-four hours when it is already defined as having one morning and one evening????

Genesis 1:5 KJV
(5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Jose Fly said:

It's like you just can't help yourself....you just have to lie, lie, and lie some more.

And you're the person claiming to be advocating for "God's word"? The same text that lists as one of God's commandments, "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

This is fascinating.

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Now see, that's an example of dishonest argument there. An HONEST argument would have been to present an example or two of how Evolution Belief has advanced science. But I'm guessing those are lacking, just like an example of "beneficial mutations" that supposedly drive evolution.

Rosenritter said:

Now see, that's an example of dishonest argument there. An HONEST argument would have been to present an example or two of how Evolution Belief has advanced science. But I'm guessing those are lacking, just like an example of "beneficial mutations" that supposedly drive evolution.

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Well gee....if only someone had done exactly that....you would have ended up looking quite silly.

But then those who've been paying attention and are more careful about the accusations of dishonesty they throw around, will recall POST #108, and well....we can all just draw our own conclusions about just who's being "dishonest" in this exchange.

Now, you wanna roll the dice on your claim about beneficial mutations and see how that goes? :think:

6days said:

Pasteur's son in law wrote of Louis Pastwurs last days saying *"Absolute faith in God and in Eternity, and a conviction that the power for good given to us in this world will be continued beyond it, were feelings which pervaded his whole life; the virtues of the gospel had ever been present to him. Full of respect for the form of religion which had been that of his forefathers, he came simply to it and naturally for spiritual help in these last weeks of his life".*

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Well done. Another scientist who did all their best work as an atheist or humanist, and only became a committed Christian on his deathbed after all his real creativity was done. And even so, no specific mention of YEC beliefs.

Could you try to find a major scientist from the past who clearly declared a belief in young earth creationism above material origins, and we can start from there? One is not much, but you have a big zero right now.

6days said:

Correct... various people groups refer to a infinite being with different names. Louis believed in the Creator God of the Bible.*
*
Sounds like a creationist to me!!
I agree with him. (Depending how 'religion' is defined. The Bible defines religion as helping widows and orphans). Most Biblical creationists would agree, especially when we consider Pasteur said, "The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.”*
Do you also believe the holocaust was a hoax?*

Pasteur's son in law wrote of Louis Pastwurs last days saying *"Absolute faith in God and in Eternity, and a conviction that the power for good given to us in this world will be continued beyond it, were feelings which pervaded his whole life; the virtues of the gospel had ever been present to him. Full of respect for the form of religion which had been that of his forefathers, he came simply to it and naturally for spiritual help in these last weeks of his life".*

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Dear gcthomas and 6days,

You don't know the Alwight/Alan who I know. In the last days, he asked me if I would pray to God that He would send an angel to him during his last days. You can cringe all that you want, but when it comes down to being dead and facing it, it changes a person, a person who needs someone to turn to in his hour of need. I have saved almost every email he has sent me. I loved him like a brother. You all did not even wish him condolences and when it was his birthday, you all were absent at his Birthday Thread. Some friends you are. You atheists don't have room for love or showing of love for a friend. It is a travesty. I totally cannot believe it. When all of you deserted him, he knew who his friends were. Me and God and Jesus, and angels. With almost every email near the end of his life, he requested that I send him an angel. He said he was fine with death after dying, but he was not okay with the actual dying part at all and feared it would be painful. We all have to die sometime and if you all don't believe in someone greater than yourself, that is a sad story. Who do you reach out to in that situation, when you face death and what is going to happen during that dying experience and what will happen afterwards. I loved Alan and thought that he was the most redeemable among you all, and so that is why I cared for him. He was a brother, same descendants as me: Noah and his family. We're all brothers and sisters. And we fight each other to the death down here. It is beyond reasoning. Oh well, I will close. There are no words I could choose, because their meaning still leaves for you to choose. That's a quote. I'm not trying to scare you away. I'm just trying to help my atheist brothers to find real, true peace and knowledge.

In His Memory, Tons Of Love For Alwight/Alan,

Michael

6days said:

So when God tells us to rest on the 7th day as He did, does that mean we can take a break for any time period we wish?

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Dear marhig,

No, you are to keep the Sabbath holy, and that is something few of us Christians are doing, because Constantinople told us that the Sabbath was on Sunday. The Sabbath is actually on Fri evening until Saturday evening. So most all of us Christians don't even correctly observe the Sabbath, thus breaking one of the Ten Commandments. Honest, this is the truth. Jesus was killed on Friday, but because the Sabbath occurred that evening, Mary and her loved ones asked Pilate to be allowed to take his body so they could lay it in the tomb prepared for Him. They could not even apply aromatic spices to Him because they were not supposed to do Anything on the Sabbath. And will the Christians finally change their mistake. Probably not. They are so ingrained that King Constantinople was correct that they just keep celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday. Sunday is the 1st day of the week. So we are all at fault as far as being sinners. Us Christians don't even keep all of the Ten Commandments. Also, Christians don't understand that lying is only about bearing false witness about their neighbors. White lies are fine, like telling your friend that you are going to your house to study, and instead surprising them with keeping a secret, or in other words, a surprise party for their birthday. We all screw up a lot of things.

I wouldn't be here except to help you.

Michael

marhig said:

Hi Michael,

Yes I agree with that, but it does also say that a day is a thousand years. To me I see it meaning that God doesn't go by a 24 hour period of time like we do. He's timeless. But saying that, I also believe that if God wanted to create the whole universe within 24 hours he could. He can do anything and I have complete faith in him.

I haven't looked properly into it, but I'm pretty sure that a day hasn't always been the 24 hour day and it has changed over time. Although time is nothing to God as he created it.

Here in the Bible are verses which say the word day but don't mean an actual 24 hour period

Zephaniah 1

The great day of the LORD*is*near,*it is near, and hasteth greatly,*even*the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day*is*a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

2 Peter 3

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Also, I see genesis very differently to many others and I see it in a spiritual sense also. And I believe that everything in the Bible has a deeper meaning. I believe that the earth is much older that 6000 years, but only God knows and really it's not important to us to know. I just know that I have to get my heart right before him and keep my heart open to him for him to do his work within.

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Dear marhig,

Thanks so much for keeping an open mind and for being such a devout Christian as you seem to be to me. In the instances you gave to me, every one has a 24-hour day mentioned. In the day that the Lord comes will be in one day. In the day that the Lord brings His wrath upon the Earth is also a 24-hour day. None of them that you mentioned is more than a 24-hour day. And I must tell you that the Earth isn't going to be melted, nor the elements, during this next resurrection. That will happen during the second resurrection or second death, whichever words you prefer. No, man will inherit the Earth and live here again for thousands of years. Probably two or three thousand years. Then the elements shall be burnt up. See your Bible.

In Rev. 20:5KJV, it says what you need to hear. The meek shall inherit the Earth and the Earth shall be a beautiful place to dwell in for at least a thousand years. After that, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, hell, which is the center of our Earth. Our Earth is round, so there is no bottom. Only a top and a center. Because of gravity, we all think we are on top of the Earth, and we are. There simply is no bottom, thus the bottomless pit or Hell. It is very hot there, with magma and lava as a description of it. But the real problem will be the lake of fire, where Satan will be cast after this last chance he is given. Our Sun is the lake of fire. It is much hotter there than our Hell in the center of our Earth. Satan doesn't want to go there, so he is fighting an uphill battle in which he will not succeed, because our God is greater than him. See Rev. 19:20KJV and Rev. 20:10KJV. I wish I could post much more that I know here on this thread, but it is a lot of work. So I reveal things slowly. It is best that you don't learn so much too fast. You all don't understand the scriptures, even though they have been recorded for you to help you learn and know. It's understandable though, definitely.

God created full grown trees in the garden of Eden within one day. They had many rings most likely, but man does not understand. God made things that took years to make and He created them in an instant, or one day. If God had to plant saplings of trees in the garden of Eden, it would have to wait 5 years for the trees to grow enough to bear plenty of fruit for Adam and Eve to eat. This Earth seems older than 6,000 years too, but don't let that surprise you. God created it at the age that He wanted it to be or project. You must know that He didn't create a baby Adam and a baby Eve, and wait for years until they were grown to be with each other in Eden. Instead God created a young man and woman, instead of a baby. He also created the chickens before the eggs. So if anyone ever asks you what came first, the chicken or the egg, say Chicken, for that is what God first created...an adult chicken. Same with adult bison, buffalo and mastodons. He didn't created them all as babies.

Man can only fathom things in some scientific way, and man is forever wrong. All because they do not factor in God into their equations. It is hard to discuss, but scientists are just men, like us all. They make mistakes and figure it's okay, because the truth will come out sooner or later. So they don't care if they perpetuate lies or misnomers. They can always say, oh, well we were wrong. Yippee!! They will all go to a place they wish they hadn't and the children of God shall go to the place created just for them. Jesus said 'I go and make a place for you in Heaven, for in my Father's Kingdom, there are many mansions. Jesus is going to prepare them a place on the planet Venus, whether any of you like it or not. Earth shall fling into Mars' place and Venus will fling to Earth's place. This is why Jesus said, "I am the bright and morning star." See Rev. 22:16KJV. See Rev. 2:28KJV. 'and I shall give you the morning star {Venus} even as I received it from my Father.' That's what it boils down to. Do you understand now why there is more going on than you realize. These are things kept from the knowledge of scientists. This is getting long, so I will cut things short. I must admit though that Jesus said, In my Father's House are many mansions. These mansions are places like Andromeda and Neptune, etc. God keeps their spirits warm because they don't need the Sun for heat. Oh well, this is another can of worms to open. I'm just saying that, yes, there are many mansions.

The Lord has been very good to me and has taught me many things. This is because I am one of His two olive trees. Only God knows who the other witness is. It is His trump card. And Venus shall escape the elements burning up and shall be cast out far from being burnt, for God gives it to Jesus. God would not give it to Him and then take it away. This is where the New Jerusalem shall be. It will be Spectacular. Like nothing we've ever seen before. We will not need a sun or moon, for God and Jesus will be all of the light and heat we will need. So even though we are in a frigid cold Universe, we shall still remain warm and giving off light. You see, each soul is filled with an energy, our essence, our light. With millions of us in one place, we shine as a star does. Okay, I'm saying that the spirit of life which God has put into our souls, will be our sustenance. I'm getting too far for you to fathom, so I will quit here.

Much Love, In Jesus Christ,

Michael

gcthomas said:

Well done. Another scientist who did all their best work as an atheist or humanist, and only became a committed Christian on his deathbed after all his real creativity was done. And even so, no specific mention of YEC beliefs.

Could you try to find a major scientist from the past who clearly declared a belief in young earth creationism above material origins, and we can start from there? One is not much, but you have a big zero right now.

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Wow GC... You are not only trying to move the goalposts but you are also want to re-write history.
There is nothing anywhere about Pasteur having a deathbed conversion to Christianity. His son in law wrote that faith in God and the virtues of the Gospels pervaded his whole life.

It was suggested a belief in evolution was necessary for vaccines. However Pasteur developed vaccines and his other scientific accomplishments rejecting common ancestry. He claimed "The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.”

6days said:

Wow GC... You are not only trying to move the goalposts but you are also want to re-write history.
There is nothing anywhere about Pasteur having a deathbed conversion to Christianity. His son in law wrote that faith in God and the virtues of the Gospels pervaded his whole life.

It was suggested a belief in evolution was necessary for vaccines. However Pasteur developed vaccines and his other scientific accomplishments rejecting common ancestry. He claimed "The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.”

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Dear 6days,

You know, it is a shame that Christians don't celebrate the Sabbath on the right day. We are breaking a commandment in our confusion. But, God did just create the Sabbath so that man would not work seven days a week without resting. He wants us to at least take a day of a break before we work again. It is nice of us to have Saturday and Sunday off. We are blessed. Just thought I'd let you know.

I'm going to have to get going. I can't keep up with everyone here it seems, unless I stay up all night trying to answer every post. So don't be bummed if I can't get to your post right away. I will catch up. You're the Best!!

In God's Love For His Son And For Us,

Michael

6days said:

Wow GC... You are not only trying to move the goalposts but you are also want to re-write history.
There is nothing anywhere about Pasteur having a deathbed conversion to Christianity. His son in law wrote that faith in God and the virtues of the Gospels pervaded his whole life.

It was suggested a belief in evolution was necessary for vaccines. However Pasteur developed vaccines and his other scientific accomplishments rejecting common ancestry. He claimed "The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.”

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You said he was a creationist, and all you got was a Christian. Well, nearly everyone proclaimed themselves Christian, yet Pasteur said nothing about his work being inspired by anything other than a materialist scientific approach. Unless you have something you haven't revealed yet?

redfern said:

Michael, you may be well-intentioned, but I have made the point before – and you seem not to take the hint. You are wasting your time and mine authoring long nonsensical harangues in response to my posts. I am frankly not interested in conversations with someone who is scientifically illiterate and who lives in their own fantasy world. Please don’t be rude and waste both my time and yours.

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Dear redfern,

Who are you kidding? You don't like my posts, because they cut into your soul and cause you trouble with the things that you believe in. I am not scientifically illiterate living in a fantasy world. Don't be rude and say such nasty things about me, Mr. Rudeness. You can't handle the truth!! I did quite well in biology, chemistry, and human physiology. I wanted to be a doctor, but I like my job helping God even more, so no love lost there. I wanted a job that would help man better than just being a doctor and I got my wish. God was looking out for me, so He made me a fisher of men instead. He has taught me an exceeding amount to shut your mouth quite quickly. That's what you can't hack. I'm not dumb. Let's face the truth as necessary, redfern. Whatever. I try to help but you fear my help.

Grow Some,

Michael