Cross Reference
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I really wouldn't know because it is too convoluted for me to disect.
ECT This is why I believe the Atonement played no favorites . . .
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I really wouldn't know because it is too convoluted for me to disect.
Cross Reference
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The OT saints were justified by faith. Now what part did Jesus have to play in that unless reconciliation means someting else?
Might it be that reconciling is the bringing together of two equal values?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Yes. Being in Christ is to be born again. Being born again is being born of the Spirit. Being born of the Spirit is by impartation. Justification, however, is just the understanding of what happens (behind the scenes, so to speak) to bring us to faith in Christ. And being quickened is the work of the Spirit that does that. When we are brought to repentance and faith in Christ we are brought to salvation and being born again. That quickening brings us to ask for salvation and the Holy Spirit. But it ultimately is brought about by God. Justification is imputed, salvation (and the Holy Spirit) is imparted - but only as a result of justification and the work of the Holy Spirit in a man. That's the way I understand it.
Eagles Wings
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Excellent post. Gave me much to think about.
Cross Reference
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Ok. I see that and agree now, How doing something "as unto the Lord" because we re in Christ? Wouldn't you say that was aspirating to be conformed to His image with regards to my conduct? If not pursuing in that direction, how should I consider myself to be "in Christ" if the evidence doesn't support my profession? IOW: My Aspirational endeavor confirms His completion in me..
themuzicman
Well-known member
First, Hebrews is demonstrating how Christ is greater than the things of the Old Covenant, including angels, Moses, and the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.
Hebrews even describes the difference between the two for us/
Atonement is a sacrifice that must be brought periodically as payment for past sins. This is why the priests had to continually make sacrifices for people individually and the people corporately.
Second, Christ's sacrifice is GREATER than an atonement, because it is one sacrifice made for all sins at all times, and it is a propitiation, not an atonement.
Indeed, and atonement cannot take away sins, but rather is a temporary covering for Israel for the purposes of the Old Covenant until propitiation was made, and the New Covenant established.
Using Hebrews to say that the nature of the sacrifice remains misses the entire tenor of Hebrews, as throughout Jesus is categorically superior to all the other things Hebrews addresses. To say that Jesus is just a better atonement is insufficient, given the magnitude of the differences.
New Covenant, new law, new high priest, and a new way to deal with sins: Propitiating God's wrath for all sin, rather than simply covering it.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Jesus propitiated all sins, so that those who died believing would receive justification.
No. Reconciling is simply the setting aside of differences for the purpose of establishing relationship.
Cross Reference
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Then please reconcile this verse: "Therefore being justified by faith we and [the OT saints now], have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1 (KJV)
Question: What was it that made peace with God that was not available before the cross for which the OT saints held captive by death, longed for?
[emphasis mine]
themuzicman
Well-known member
Justification.
Cross Reference
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And all along I thought is was His precious blood that set the captives free; those righteous but not righteous enough being the fallen race of Adam and under the penalty of death because of his transgression. Oh well, maybe next time I'll get it right.
themuzicman
Well-known member
I don't know what brings justification in your theology, but in my theology Christ's blood makes propitiation for the sins of the world, such that we can be justified by faith.
Apparently propitiation and justification are foreign concepts to your theology.
Cross Reference
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In the OT the righteous were justified by faith. Obviously, Jesus wasn't even born to shed His blood. Ponder that before replying. I would say your theology is simply incomplete.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Given that your theology doesn't include propitiation and justification, I'd say you should examine the log in your own eye first.
And, if you'd have bothered to read Hebrews 11, they died not having received what was promised. They didn't receive justification until Christ's death. Yes, righteousness was credited to them, but the receipt of the promise didn't happen until later.
You do realize that you are both speaking the same sentence, but putting the emPhas-Sis on different syllables, right?
And on that note, I see nothing but Glory to God and His Love in the dialogue between you and CR.
Awesome thread!
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This is why I believe the Atonement played no favorites . . .
You make an excellent point.
In initial gleaning of the entire 66 books, God's standard of Perfection and Just Judgment are emphasized by the out pouring of His wrath.
And yet, after thoroughly meeting Jesus in the Gospels, God's demeanor lines more up with a loving Groom struggling to Save and teach His rebellious bride that just doesn't know how good He really is.
In that light, unconditional Love does seem to transcend immediate revelation.
Therefore, whether it's understood as an out pouring of wrath on Himself, instead of us; or the assertion that His Love is Unconditional and His Act of Devine revelation, through His union with us in Jesus, to the point of dying at the hands of His cherished bride; the message still spells out that He would rather suffer than spend eternity without us.
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You make an excellent point.
In initial gleaning of the entire 66 books, God's standard of Perfection and Just Judgment are emphasized by the out pouring of His wrath.
And yet, after thoroughly meeting Jesus in the Gospels, God's demeanor lines more up with a loving Groom struggling to Save and teach His rebellious bride that just doesn't know how good He really is.
In that light, unconditional Love does seem to transcend immediate revelation.
Therefore, whether it's understood as an out pouring of wrath on Himself, instead of us; or the assertion that His Love is Unconditional and His Act of Devine revelation, through His union with us in Jesus, to the point of dying at the hands of His cherished bride; the message still spells out that He would rather suffer than spend eternity without us.
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Cross Reference
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Look for my reply tomorrow N.I.G. Have a nice evening, Bro.
You say: “Our redemption, then, is based in justification, not atonement.”
The setting free of the kidnapped child, “redemption” came about by the cruel torture, humiliation, murder and life giving blood of Christ being paid as a ransom payment and the acceptance of that payment by the kidnapper.
You also go on in a later post to say: “Indeed, and atonement cannot take away sins, but rather is a temporary covering for Israel for the purposes of the Old Covenant until propitiation was made, and the New Covenant established.”
That is not true for all sins, since “minor” unintentional sins (Lev. 5) could be atoned for correctly and God would forgive them. God’s forgiveness comes after the completion of the atonement process.
Few sins are “minor” and there was no way under the OT to atone for those types of sins and all mature adults are guilty of rebellious disobedience (not just minor sins).
You use a very “general” term “faith” to say how we are “justified” before God, so what specifically are true Christians putting their “trust” in, which people who just call themselves “Christians” are not trusting in?
In other words: What gives you confidence in your justification to stand before God/Christ at Judgment?
Paul talks about being “crucified with Christ”, but he was not one of the thieves, so how could he and everyone else be crucified “with” Christ? It seems if I personally had been crucified with Christ, I could feel disciplined by God enough to stand by God who also went through my disciplining with me. Does a rebellious disobedient child who has correctly accepted sever loving discipline with the parent’s participation afterwards feel comfortable (justified) sitting next to his parent?
Cross Reference
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Wrong as wrong can be! The promise they received was as money in the bank; a promisary note due and payable by God upon the death of Jesus Christ! What's wrong with you to believe otherwise when you say you know your Bible?! They were justified by faith but could not be delivereed to the presence of God because the issue of Adam's transgression had not yet been satisfied/canceled out, which held them captive.. Jesus made peace with God in their behalf as only He could.. Jesus set the captives free!
themuzicman
Well-known member
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness brings justification and life to all men.
Which act of righteousness had to be completed before justification was brought to all men?
Interplanner
Well-known member
He's referring to the whole work of Christ, like Mt 3:16 does: 'it is necessary to do this, to fulfill all righteousness.' The important thing was the Person doing so.