1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
:1Way:
With the reservation that our ideas of what "eternal" is may differ.
Specifically eternity past.....
ECT Our triune God
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
:1Way:
With the reservation that our ideas of what "eternal" is may differ.
Specifically eternity past.....
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
None of us get to redefine such terms. There's a difference between aidios (eternal) and aionios (everlasting), even though both are translated with both English words. There's a reason for that.
There's no such thing as "eternity past". Eternity is timeless, while "past" is a time term. They're not compatible.
The only way to speak of God (as Spirit, and with His Logos), who alone is eternal, "before" creation is to speak Incarnationally and to preface it as such.
This is where virtually everyone is off the rails; and it's the main contributing source to conflicting foundational understandings for Theology Proper and beyond.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I'm in agreement.
I could not remember whether you were one of those who used the term eternity past or not.
That's why I said our ideas may differ.
Not sure what rails yer referrin' to here.
I'm in agreement.
I could not remember whether you were one of those who used the term eternity past or not.
That's why I said our ideas may differ.
Not sure what rails yer referrin' to here.
The rails of the Crazy Train
Paul asked the Lord who He is, and the Lord told him--
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Peter was also told who Jesus was--
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Why do you add or take away from the answer?
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
You and Lon just get mad when you can not control the beliefs of others.
LA
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
LOL. I'm not mad (or MAD). You wouldn't like me when I'm mad. Haha.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
And why have you said Jesus is a "divine" man? That's adding to what He said in scripture, just like much else you say. Double standard much? Yep.
You're the one that always seems to be mad. Get glad.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Not sure what rails yer referrin' to here.
Cosmogony/Cosmology. Historically, nobody has validly accounted for the created heavenly realm along with the cosmos; and correlated that to the procession of the Logos and Pneuma as Son and Holy Spirit.
The Trinity is the best and closest formulaic, but needs some revision. Most either affirm it and misrepresent it, or oppose it because they don't understand it and where it could be better expressed to avoid false conceptualizations like Tritheism and Modalism.
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Historically, nobody has validly accounted for the created heavenly realm along with the cosmos; and correlated that to the procession of the Logos and Pnuema as Son and Holy Spirit.
By George . . I think you've got it
Cosmogony/Cosmology. Historically, nobody has validly accounted for the created heavenly realm along with the cosmos; and correlated that to the procession of the Logos and Pnuema as Son and Holy Spirit.
Looking forward to that conversation ... P.S. ... love your new avatar.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
It begins fairly simply. Though much lip service was done to distinguishing them, there has never been a valid and adequate distinction between aidios (eternal) and aionios (everlasting), though both Greek words are translated with both English words. (And aidios is only used twice in the entire NT text.)
So ultimately, the best we've been given is two "kinds" of eternity (most notably by the Scholastic Latin, Thomas Aquinas). But that's not nearly enough, and it affects everything else in a cascade from that foundation if it's false.
This is why there were so many early "competing" formulaics for Theology Proper. They were all compensating for having the same shared insufficient foundation, and every debate was framed incorrectly.
The Arian conflict utilized Incarnational terms by asking... "Was there a time when the Son was not, or not?" WRONG question. There was not time until it was created in all forms to govern both the heavenly realm and the cosmos.
Most began with the impression and passive presupposition that God was eternally in heaven and created the cosmos. But God is Self-conscious Self-existence, and is timeless and non-spatial (among other significant incomunicable attributes). So how did the uncreated God create the heavenly realm and "get in" there?
Heaven is not a giant eternal God jar. Heaven is created and everlasting, just as the cosmos was in its original state that lapsed at the Edenic scenario in the garden and will be restored.
The Trinity doctrine, just like all other ancient formulaics, gives no consideration or answer for "how" Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal apart from heaven and the cosmos, but also have real presence in both created realms. How were they, as uncreated, compatible in any sense with creation to "occupy" it, and how did that occur?
God created aeviternity (everlasting) as endless durative time in whatever form it is in the heavenly realm. Eternity is not a "place" or a "thing", nor is it any form of time. Eternity, as one of His primary incommunicable attributes, is relative to God's existence alone.
That's why there's no "eternity past". That's a fallacy of shallow men's minds, grappling with high things to express in a lowly manner. Eternity is the timelessness of God. Everlasting is the created endless time of the heavenly realm and the cosmos apart from its lapse and restoration.
The eternal God created everlasting. But the quality of everlasting life from God is relative to its source; so in this context, everlasting life can be referred to as eternal life. But not because we become eternal as uncreated with no beginning; but because the quality of the source that gives that life is eternal, and from which comes the endlessness of everlasting.
That's just a quick summary, and doesn't yet touch on the procession of the Logos and Pneuma as the Son and Spirit; but there are many facets to the minutiae of all of that, and some of it needs to be subtly corrected from the work of the Cappadocians in the late 4th century.
When the foundation is subtly insufficient, that which is built upon it is subtly in error. That's my lifelong pursuit. To introduce the reconciliation that will establish more particular boundaries for Theology Proper that resolve the many remaining paradoxes that are left out of genuine sense of respect and awe for the mysteries of God.
But musterion is "the mystery revealed", not concealed. The Son needs to be fully known as the eternal and uncreated Logos of God, who is the Father. All the Unitarian, Arian, Sabellian, and other nonsense can be reconciled to the truth. But the Trinity doctrine needs a touch of that, too.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I thank you for bringing this distinction forth between "eternal" and "everlasting" which had me more confused than I realized. Neither contradicts the other, but they are not the same, and seeing that is very helpful IMO.
Well it sure is the proper remedy and rebuttal to Modalism as well as popular Dispensational Eschatology!
Thank you very much . . .
Anytime you want to go deeper, I will be reading.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
It really is the last untapped horizon of truth for understanding God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and for comprehending our own Anthropology Proper.
Yes, and you can see why I would get irritated when some have called me a Modalist. But this is the key to understanding that multi-hypostaticism was a compensatory development for having not accounted adequately for the distinction between eternal and everlasting, and how God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit "got into" creation (with which they are incompatible directly).
The Dispies have no clue the extent to which they are denying Christ and the Gospel. It's grieving.
I'll get on to more at some point soon. I'm curricularizing all my teachings sections, so maybe it will be easier to reproduce here.
Gosh! It took me 20 minutes to find the ability to message you. Tapatalk wounld let me write you. The new TOL setup is a nightmare to find subscribed post and sorts. After 20 minutes I found your box full. Now i have to do this in public. Sorry, Nang, i used your post again for off topic subjects .
I found some of your posts interesting on the nouns and verbs. I replied to a post at: "Are we saved by our works' , post #1668 . Would you respond to that post? Thanks.
Yeah, we covered this subject in another thread and I think it one of those instances where the Greek actually has useful word equivalents that accurately represent these two different notions and carry them forward from the Hebrew. Nice catch.
That could well be said of more than just the subject at hand but that likely doesn't belong here. Suffice to say, once you cement a notion into the wall of your belief you are forever compelled to build around it. I'm kinda reminded of people and their tattoos ... do you think they ever reconsider the wisdom of their choices?
Well, I wasn't there so I don't really feel qualified to hold forth on the subject … you know, Job 38 and all that … I pick at the notion and am willing to speculate but I don't feel emboldened to say, “THUS SAYETH THE LORD”, as it concerns this matter and I certainly would not lead others to believe the matter of understanding this as being in any way salvific.
I have to admit I don't know and the Bible has precious little to say about it but it does indicate that heaven (and, alternately, the heavens) and the earth were created at the same time. Genesis 1 and all that. Traveling back in “time” prior to that leaves one skating on very thin ice if you are in any way constrained by what the Bible says when trying to piece this together. That said I am beginning to think that Einstein was onto something when the ramifications of what he said pointed to time and space being more perceptual than hypostasis in nature, if you will.
Here I have to circle back to that “all things new” business … I have no scriptural reason to believe the cosmos not included in that deal. Eye hath not seen nor ear heard? The heavens and the earth shall pass away but My Word ...?
Here I am reminded of the words of The Bard …
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Well, I appreciate the inclination that most share when trying to know their God. I think it not unlike our call to thirst for righteousness in that it is not something we will lay hands on in this lifetime. It is the gift of God to those that are His in the resurrection. In the mean time I think we would be well advised not to quibble overlong about things Paul has very clearly told us we do not and will not understand correctly in this flesh. Again, a perceptual problem I think and one we will not be shed of in this life. So, that said, what is important? Paul told us that too and in so doing was only echoing his Master.
Lay hands on love. It is the end of wisdom and the key to your salvation.
Until recently I thought musterion was a lout spewing his nonsense across the expanses of TOL with such verve that I was required to make him the lone member of my ignore list in order to allow for the time necessary to read the offerings of others. Now? ...
... I say, I say that's a joke son ...
Foghorn Leghorn
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Okay.
Edit... My feed doesn't have a #1668 that seems to match subject matter that you would want addressed.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Is there another post # for me to address?
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
But Hebrew didn't really have time-based terminology in an abstract manner related to considering eternal versus everlasting versus temporal.
Exactly. There's a cascade of compensatory doctrinal formulaics that then must be subtly addressed for correction.
Precisely the problem. Generally referred to as cognitive dissonance.
Except that extensive lexicography has much to reveal in this regard.
There's SOME point at which some of it is salvific versus not.
Again, lexicography opens up much that most don't access.
Yes, the hypostases in the lapsed creation have been changed in some significant manner; though I don't tend to buy into Einstein's theoretical assessments. The current condition of the cosmos is literally not truly existence in its purest sense.
This would be the cyclical nature of aions (ages). This is where it takes an extreme depth of teaching regarding God's Rhema and Logos.
Well... Eye hath not seen... Ear hath not heard... Neither hath it entered into the heart of man... What God hath in store for them that love Him, that are the called according to His purpose... BUT HE HATH REVEALED IT UNTO US... BY... HIS... SPIRIT.
We can know. It's the mystery revealed.
And yet, if it's available by the Word and the Spirit, then we should never stop short of knowing what has been revealed. It's not about theological data as information. It's about revelation, and that by the Word.
Love abounds in (epignosis) knowledge; epignosis is a synonym for pistis (faith); faith worketh through love, after it comes by hearing (the noun, the thing heard).
Indeed he is. He should change his screen name. It's fraud.
I say, I say... Boy.